Jarka

The best way to judge a team is to see how it peforms under pressure, and finals footy is the most pressure a team will face. Our record in finals is as poor as you can get, recently we've won only one which was against an injury depleted saints. Of course this could just be a symptom of one very basic problem, we've ended up with a list of extremely poor mature leaders. Sadly, Daniher wasn't a good coach and CAC's list management could have been better.

Neitz recent problem isn't that he lacks the effort to provide pressure it's just that he's lost his pace aand mobility to do it effectively. Last seaon it was quite common to see his direct opponent run off him all day but that is bound to happen when a player is enaring the end of his career.

A curse? I think not. More like 30 years of incompetent management.

Mate, I was joking, I just forgot to put in a smilie. Have you ever seen Darren Brown playing chess?

My personal preference is to write off the loss this year for the reason you've already stated. In terms of football I'm hopefully going to enjoy watching Grimes play over the next 10 or 12 years, just like I enjoyed watching Bell play last season.

I imagined that you were more of a 'checkers' type.

As I said, a 3 way trade, and who did we get with pick 26?

M9 that's bloody annoying, it's fans like yourself who support the game who have lost out here. If I were yuo Id write to the AFL and include photocopies of your tickets and hotel reservation and see what they say, if you don't get a response send it into SEN. I would take the AFL to task over it.

Fan, the rucking comment was mine and I'm happy to explore the statement further, but firstly Simmonds wasn't traded for a first round pick. He was involved in a 3 way trade which left Melbourne with Ellis, so going by your reasoning that Jolly was a good pick because we received a first round pick then Simmonds was a poor one because we ended up with a dud in return. Jolly is interesting, and I agree that he is the best ruck that CAC has drafted however we were lucky to get a first round pick because he is clearly not a first choice ruck, as Sydney has discovered by continually trying to add senior ruckman to their list. I've had numerous debates on this forum about Jolly being a loss, but guys like RR put up a very good case to argue the opposite. Fatty is right, we have only one decent ruckman on our list (Meesen has yet to prove himself), and it's a problem that CAC has had 11 years to try to get right. My personal opinion is that CAC is a decent recruiter, but I wouldn't have him in the top 4. I believe that because he occasionally posts on this forum (and demonology) then his reputation has expanded far beyond his capabilities because of the 'celebrity syndrome'. Don't get me wrong, I loved reading his posts on the explanations of why he drafted some players, we were very lucky to have that resource of information, but alot of poeple here belived that what CAC said was gospel, which is [censored] because in recruiting it's just opinions. I specifically enjoyed his thoughts after the draft when Hawthor took Roughhead and Franklin instead of Tambling, he gave a level headed explanation on what appeared to be a mssive blunder by the hawks, and he turned out to be right. He was great to have around and will be missed but life goes on.

Browny is a top bloke and he made the right decision, loved how he retired.

There's more to add to this debate. Positives for CAC Very good use of later picks. ie Bartram, Bruce etc Good use of rookie picks (especially early in career). ie J.Mac, Davey etc Good recent record ie McLean, Bate, Jones Second half of his career very good Negatives Poor record of drafting leaders early career (recent picks have yet to prove themselves) Poor record of drafting KPP's Ordinary record of first round picks early in career Ordinary record of recruiting ruckman CAC's role wasn't just about recruiting though, he was also in charge of list management and considering the new coach decided that we had to rebuild the list around the u23's then it's fair to say that the list management hasn't been that great over the last half a decade. At the end of last year we had a whole group of 25's and over who weren't really up to first 18 standard.

Fair call on Whelan, whom I rate highly as well. I'm pretty sure that Robo was first drafted in '96, then dropped and rookied in in '97 and then promoted the year after that. Matty Febey is also an interesting story, first drafted @ 16 in the '86 draft, then again in the '89 psd. I remember hearing stories that his brother wouldn't extend his contract untill Matthew was taken care of.

I thought I'd have a go at picking our top 10 all time draft picks. At first I figured it was going to be pretty easy but as I quickly found out it definitely wasn't a straightforward decision and I had to set some sort of criteria that I loosely based my decisions on: 1. Quality of the player - very subjective, everyone has their favourites 2. Value for money - Pretty obvious 3. Level of output - also pretty obvious So with these 3 in mind I rechecked my list and came up with the following as my best ever draft picks. 1. 1997 Pick 51 Rookie draft - James McDonald Probably the most underrated player we've ever had on our list, just keeps on delivering the same each year. Not a superstar but well respected and great value for his pick. 2. 1997 Pick 18 PSD - Shane Woewodin Our only drafted player to have won a brownlow and once again great value for money. I actually seriously considered having him at 1 but Jnr's longevity beat him in the end. He gave us great service for many years. 3. 1986 Pick 3 - Steven Febey The first year of the draft, we probably spent about $10 on the recruiting department for the year (t/a coffee's on the morning of the draft for everyone), hell we probably didn't even have a recruiting manager. Bloody miracle to have picked up a decent player considering the lack of science and kowledge. 4. 2004 Pick 3 Rookie - Arron Davey The most recent draft on my list and a great pick considering everyone dismissed him as a potential player. Adds excitement to our team like no other player on our current list. 5. 1987 Pick 50 - Stephen Tingay Once again early days in the draft, but gee he was a great player. Probably a little high but he was one of my favs and I hope he didn't marry that chick that pushed him through the glass door. 6. 1994 Pick 16 - Adem Yze Regardless of the current debate about him now he has given years and years of great service. Originally drafted as a forward (I think, memory a little hazy) he didn't find his feet until tried as a rebounding defender where he led the 'Rebounds out of the defensive 50' for years. Then later on he moved back forward and kicked many freakish goals. If that isn't enough the fact that the entire Melbourne crowd used to shout 'OOOZE' every time he kicked the ball is worthy of a spot on this list. 7. 1999 Pick 64 - Cameron Bruce Late pick, quality player. Can't ask for anything more from a recruiting manager 8. 2003 Pick 56 Rookie - Nathan Carroll I know most people won't agree with me but my reasoning is that Carroll has held down an important position for us for a couple years when we haven't had anyone else to do the job. Not the best player going around but a very good drafting effort for such a late rookie pick. 9. 1996 Pick 68 - Russell Robertson I love the story that he came into notice after appearing on 'my footy legends' on 'The Footy Show.' Very good value for money. 10. 1999 Pick 19 - Brad Green I reckon he's almost as underrated as Jnr. I originally had Yze at 8 but then as I was tapping on the keyboard I realised I was being too harsh, he probably could even have gone further up. Apologies go to Jakovich, TJ, Rivers, McLean, D.Bennett and James Tomkins (surely our only drafted player to have won multiple gold medals) One last thing, this would have to be the best draft day we've ever had: 1997 ROOKIE DRAFT (Melbourne) # 3 Nathan Bassett (Norwood) MELBOURNE = All-Australian, 175 games # 19 Daniel Ward (Fitzroy Top Up) MELBOURNE = 120 games # 35 Russell Robertson (Melbourne) MELBOURNE = B&F winner, All-Australian, Club Leading Goalkicker, 190 games # 51 James McDonald (Old Xaverians) MELBOURNE = All-Australian, B&F winner, 180 games # 83 Matthew Bishop (Box Hill) MELBOURNE = 150 games, Premiership player What a f£ckign awesome result. (Thread dedicated to CAC, thanks for the years of service but I hope you fail dismally at the tiggers )

I agree KJ, his assessment of Norwood and the SANFL is bewildering, especially considering that he makes out that he's an expert on all things footy.

There will always be opportunities to pick up talent in the ps and rookie drafts for the main reason that some kids develop at different times to others. Not every single kid is going to be at their best at 17/18.

Who mentioned anything about rushing him in? I didn't and it's irrelevant to my query. Are you seriously saying that playing for Norwood is the equivalent to being plucked from the 'bush'?

Last time I was in Norwood it didn't look like bush to me

I like seeing Sylvia in the middle, he uses his body very well, definitely a good impact style player who has the ability to cause the opposition headaches with match up because of his marking abilities when drifting forward however I fear that Sleeve may end up being correct.

No I was just quoting yourself.

This is actually a blessing in disguise. It's a chance for a completely new start for the club, fresh ideas and approach.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that at the end of their careers Jones will have achieved more and played at a higher level more consistently.

This was about as far as I got, in the second half of 2000 Neitz kicked 20 goals. Now I don't know about you but in my book 20 does not equate to a truckload. Thanks for helping to prove my theory, quite simply alot of Melbourne fans overrate him. Yes he has been a very good player, but for some reason when Melbourne fans talk about what he's achieved suddenly the story gets embellished to the point of obsession, and dear old maccaz69 here is a perfect example. Isn't it great to have a captain who can almost win a game for us?

deanox, what you say is true but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow. We at Melbourne have a habit of overrating our list and this attitude of giving away valuable picks for the icing on the cake is always fraught with danger.

Amen to that, I'll happily post a 'I was wrong' thread at the end of next season if we make the semi's.

I understand what you're saying Nash, I just feel that although CAC is a fine recruiter he's overrated by alot of Melbourne players. I agree (and have previously stated in other threads) that his last 5 years is miles better than the first 5. But gee, those first 5 years hurt. As you know my two issues with him are KPP's and leadership qualities, and yes both seem to be fixed (especially the latter). With regards to the draft penalties, I'm not sure it had a major affect on us. It wasn't like we missed a whole draft (or in the case of the blues a whole two drafts), we missed a first round one year then the next we lost our 2nd and 3rd round picks. What's made it worse is that we've blown similiar picks away with poor trades which gradually builds up. It's not the 1st round picks that win premierships, it's the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds that do.