Axis of Bob

Not entirely true. Demonland just moved to these message boards in 2005. There are a few around here still that predate that move and deanox is one of them.

I’m sure the all did enough year 8 English to understand rhetorical questions …… didn’t they?

I agree that it might be hard, which I do in my own matches. But that is just because I’ve grown up in an environment where openly questioning the umpire was perfectly acceptable, so I do it sometimes. If I grew up in a time where nobody did that because they’d get free kicks paid against them then I’m sure I’d be shutting up. If a 150kg prop forward in rugby can not complain to the referee, or a 50kg wing attack in netball can not instinctively complain in two of the most ridiculous sports ever created …. then I’m sure we can do it too.

You can ask for clarification but you can’t question the decision (ie, complain about it). The first asks for further information about what the umpire’s decision was (eg, “was that a mark?”) and the other one is expressing disagreement with the decision (eg, “that wasn’t a mark”). You can disagree but you can’t openly express that disagreement. Just get on with the game. Easy.

Just don't complain about the decision. Put your ego away and stand the mark like a good team mate, rather than be a selfish individual.

Nah, both umpires would say that he's complaining about the decision. Even the umpire that said "maybe it did hit the ground" is being complained to about the decision, which is an obvious free. It doesn't matter if he's questioning his abilities, it only matters if he doesn't respect the umpire's decision ... no matter how right or wrong he thinks it is.

If that's the case I hope you never try to play netball! It's not counter to human nature, it's counter to the current culture of the game.

The rule is not about not being able to talk to the umpire. The rule is about complaining about decisions. The umpire abuse rule already exists and has been strongly enforced for 20 years. The rule is intended to improve players respecting the umpire's decision. It was done by players really well in the first half, with one obvious exception.

Don't complain about umpiring decisions. It doesn't matter how justified you think you are in telling the umpire that he is wrong, just don't do it. Simple.

He could tell the umpire he is short and ugly too. It's not a defence.

What if a player is spin 350 degrees, but it takes a while to happen? Was the opponent balancing his hands on a player's back in a marking contest or pushing them out of the contest? What if both players grab each other but one is doing it much more than the other? What if a player brushes against the lower leg when they're laying a tackle around the hips? The game requires so much interpretation because pretty much every contest is technically a free kick if you look hard enough at it. It's impossible to have supporters happy about the umpiring because a decision involves so much interpretation by umpires. If you want proof of that, just listen to how many opposition supporters you disagree with when they scream about umpiring at a Melbourne game!

To my knowledge, they don't pay that rule in the VAFA. Clarke's comment would have been of a general nature (ie, AFL level), rather than specific to his umpiring or VAFA crowds. However the VAFA has had several other rules for a long time that are similar to this, such as an automatic sending off for audible obscenities, that aren't applied at AFL level. In fact the only time I've ever been sent off has been for dissenting an umpire's decision, and that was 20 years ago!

It is. He is very passionate about the need to improve umpire numbers and thinks that what the AFL is trying to do is fair enough. He also bemoans umpires having to do 5 games a week because there aren't enough umpires. There aren't enough umpires. Even the VAFA umpire quoted in the article umpired over 100 games in the season before COVID, and there are fewer umpires now!

Yeah, the article doesn't really support your point. It has a single VAFA umpire saying that he shouldn't umpire the way AFL umpires do, which is entirely true. Nor do they umpire at that standard, which applies to standing the mark, deliberate out of bounds, interchange number, among other rules which are interpreted differently at lower levels than AFL. The other two examples are of AFL umpires, one of whom fully agrees with the rule, and another who agrees with the intent of the rule because of the effects of umpire abuse at lower levels.

There is no reason why players can't still ask an umpire to explain a decision for them respectfully when the play has stopped. I've done it many times myself because the conversation is genuine, not dissenting. It could be as simple as saying "In the back?" which then is responded with "Yeah" or "Nah, it was high". Was the decision right or wrong? It doesn't matter. Throwing your arms up in the air, turning to the umpire and yelling "What for?!?!" is not respectful, it's a way of trying to tell the umpire (and everyone that can see/hear) that you think they're wrong. As Macca says, by round 15 the players will be self policing it in the same way that rugby players do. You can even see it happening now. How many times will you overtly complain about decisions when the last time you did it you got a 50 m penalty and 21 team mates giving you the death stare?

It used to be that telling an umpire that he was "a f#&_ing disgrace" was an instinctive action after getting a dodgy decision. But, it isn't any more. Players changed those instincts.

If this isn't an argument for the need for cultural change towards umpires then I don't know what is. Also, the rules usually take a few years to filter down the leagues after the AFL introduces it (if at all). The cultural change starts with what is seen at the highest level, and after that it is the passage of time that allows it to filter through to the public.

Like I said .... why can't we do both?

I don't see how dissent is more difficult to define than abuse. If I wave my hands in exasperation at a decision then I am clearly indicating to everyone that can see that I disagree with the decision. Kids see that and the culture is perpetuated. Dissent and abuse are clearly different. But the fact that we now agree that umpire abuse is a no-no demonstrates that penalising this at AFL level (20 years ago) has had a positive impact. Doing the same for overt dissent at umpiring decisions will seem weird in the short term but in 20 years will seem normal. In fact the main thing we're likely to be upset about in such a situation is that a penalised player was undisciplined not that the umpire penalised it.

The umpires do, and they're voting with their feet.

Why is it an either/or? Why not do both? Why not improve umpiring as a profession whilst also reducing the level of disrespect shown towards umpires?

And junior umpires? Those that are struggling and developing their skills, sometimes making mistakes, or even just correct decisions that players disagree with? How do we deal with the respect for junior umpires (and those at lower levels that are clearly worse than AFL umpires) when you say that the only way we can achieve this is by these umpires simply being good umpires? I am heavily involved with lower level football and umpire respect is a massive issue. Without them we don't have a game ..... and we have far fewer nowadays than we have had in the past. How do we fix the issue of umpire numbers and the attractiveness of umpiring at all levels of football?

So the only way to create respect for umpires is to create perfect umpires that don't make mistakes? Where are these perfect umpires coming from? Because there aren't many umpires coming through the ranks. Stunningly it turns out that teenagers don't enjoy being abused and belittled in games when they are learning how to be umpires. How do you intend to encourage more people to take up umpiring in lower levels?

Interestingly we are having the same discussion now as when the AFL first started to crack down on the abuse of umpires in matches. They started paying 50m penalties for it more often and everybody lost their minds about it (for mostly similar reasons as are being given now). It's interesting that we are all now very comfortable that this behaviour is unacceptable some 20 years later.

You said that it wasn't needed to achieve the aim. I was hoping for clarification on that aim, since you believed the changes wouldn't achieve it. What do you believe would "eliminate the air of enmity that exists around the supporters and the umpires"?