Ok, we're in the shiite well and truly, but the season isn't over yet, we can still achieve alot in terms of player development. In this thread I'd like to concentrate on positive things that we can do to make us a stronger team. I still think we're close to a very good team but we do have a couple of deficiencies, however this year we can go close to solving them.

-We have only one big forward and we know that when he's not playing we struggle to kick goals. Now, I know this has been argued to death but playing Newton alongside Neitz in the goal square will only do good to the kid. I can't think of a better person for Newton to learn from on our list and I'm concerned that we don't have much time left for him to pass on his knowledge. I believe doing this will help his development more than playing with Sandy, especially now that we are getting our midfield back

-We don't have anyone capable of playing CHF so we don't really have a choice, either continue to play Miller or try other players like Dunn, Bate, Robo or even Sylvia as mobile targets.

-Our midfield is pretty good when we have all hands on deck, however it's pretty obvious who we rely on for grunt, Jones and McLean. It wouldn't do Jones any harm if Daniher continues to give him some tough opponents to follow as well, eg chasing Judd all day is a very good on the job training program. Fitness permitting I'd like to see Sylvia rotated through the midfield as much as possible, I know he's a good forward but I love his tough inside work in the middle of the ground.

-For the rucks definitely give PJ more and more time as ruckman and easing back on White. With White now on the wrong side of thirty we have to start to get ready to make do without him. If we have any long term injuries I'd promote Neaves straight away and give him a run as well.

-For the defence once again we really don't have much of a choice. Frawley should be given more time and I'd play Bizzell for the rest of the year - remember what Rivers said about him after winning the Rising Star Award. So a rotating defence of Rivers, Frawley, Bizzell and Carroll gives us more options and more versatility. I'd like for Warnock to be given as much time as possible as well - we really need to make a decision on his future this year and we can't do that without seeing him play.

-For the small defenders I would use Bell, Wheels, Petterd, CJ and Buckley. The first three are obvious choices, CJ and Buckley aren't and I know it won't be popular but they have both showed promise and like Warnock now is the time to find out about them. There is no point having them on our list if we don't play them.

-The following players I would use sparingly or to cover injuries and even then not in major roles: Holland, Ferguson, Ward, Brown, Pickett, Miller, Jamar and Yze. I know some of these guys are currently better than others I have already mentioned however I believe that they are not good enough to get us to the top four if we continue to rely on them like we have been.

Let the flaming begin :D

Good suggestions, I agree, our defence has been a big weakness in recent years. But with Carrol, Rivers, Bizzell, Whelan and ? Wheatley does not sound too bad. Bell may be OK, still have doubts, he does some real clangers. Also agree some of the older players may as well be used less, not much point playing them now. If we can recruit another ruckman (not convinced PJ is the answer there yet) and another mid-fielder we may have the basis of good results next year. May be wishful thinking too, but we are not as bad as 0 - 9.

I think we need a new game plan however

jark it appears to me that you are suggesting we play everyone? who don't you want to be played?

jark it appears to me that you are suggesting we play everyone? who don't you want to be played?

I've only mentioned twenty players that I'd concentrate on, where did you get everyone?

I've only mentioned twenty players that I'd concentrate on, where did you get everyone?

(FF)...Newton alongside Neitz ...

(CHF) Miller or... Dunn, Bate, Robo or even Sylvia...

(midfield)...Jones and McLean...Sylvia rotated through the midfield as much as possible...

(rucks)... give PJ more and more time as ruckman and easing back on White. ... If we have any long term injuries I'd promote Neaves...

(tall defenders) ... Rivers, Frawley, Bizzell and Carroll...I'd like for Warnock to be given as much time as possible as well...

(small defenders)...use Bell, Wheels, Petterd, CJ and Buckley.

of that, bate, sylvia, rivers, and wheels are injured (but would otherwise be playing). the only other two who didnt play last week were CJ and buckley. i assume you are advocating swapping them for ward and brown?

you have named 9 defenders, do you want petterd and bell to play midfield and one of the talls to be on the bench?

you have named 5 players who you want to play CHF. which one do you want there? or do we play them for 22 minutes each, each week and rotate them through other positions as well?

you dont seem to be suggesting anything new thats all, we seem to be doing it already...with the exception of newton up forward and buckley in the backline, two debuts that are yet to come...

you dont seem to be suggesting anything new thats all, we seem to be doing it already...with the exception of newton up forward and buckley in the backline, two debuts that are yet to come...

I think you'll find that the thrust of Jarka's argument is that we need to look to next season with our selection philosophy. Even though players like CJ, Warnock, Buckley etc may not be currently considered best 22, we need to properly put them through their paces at AFL level (ahead of the older brigade Ward, Holland, Yze etc) to determine whether or not we should continue to invest in their development.

This differs to the current process where essentially a best-22 is being selected each week, with preference given to the experienced players.

so his blueprint is a youth policy in disguise?

of that, bate, sylvia, rivers, and wheels are injured (but would otherwise be playing). the only other two who didnt play last week were CJ and buckley. i assume you are advocating swapping them for ward and brown?

I've already stated what I would do with Ward and Brown and of course you can't play injured players but all those you mentioned are due to play over the next couple of weeks and this is a suggestion with what to do for the rest of the season.

you have named 9 defenders, do you want petterd and bell to play midfield and one of the talls to be on the bench?

Didn't you see the word rotations?

you have named 5 players who you want to play CHF. which one do you want there? or do we play them for 22 minutes each, each week and rotate them through other positions as well?

I didn't say that at all, did you actually read it properly or just count the names in that sentence? I said to either use Miller (which I think is a mistake) "OR to try other players like...."

you dont seem to be suggesting anything new thats all, we seem to be doing it already...with the exception of newton up forward and buckley in the backline, two debuts that are yet to come...

I've already stated that I think we're close to having a good team, we just need to work on our deficiencies and part of that is not relying on our senior group of inconsistent, lack of leadership types that Daniher plays over and over again.

so his blueprint is a youth policy in disguise?

Not entirely correct, it's about getting a good mix of youth and experience together. Especially youth in the areas that we're lacking in but to give them the support to learn from some very talented guys around them. It's also about not relying on the same old players that Daniher has used for years, the ones that aren't up to getting us into a top 4 spot.

It's about getting the team full of talented footballers who are capable of good disposal under pressure.

...of course you can't play injured players but all those you mentioned are due to play over the next couple of weeks and this is a suggestion with what to do for the rest of the season.

but werent we already

playing these players before they were injured?

Didn't you see the word rotations?

so do you want 6 defenders on the ground and 3 on the bench? where are your midfield rotations?

I didn't say that at all, did you actually read it properly or just count the names in that sentence? I said to either use Miller (which I think is a mistake) "OR to try other players like...."

i realise you said either. but we all know they are the options. the only other options are to play players horribly out of position and thats not gonna happen. what i wanted to know is who do you want to be played there. dont give me 5 names, tell me who and why. and what will you do with the other 4 players while they are not at CHF? if you say bench em you now have 7 players on the bench...4 CHF's and 3 defenders.

I've already stated that I think we're close to having a good team, we just need to work on our deficiencies and part of that is not relying on our senior group of inconsistent, lack of leadership types that Daniher plays over and over again.

so your saying the team is fine except for a few players who need to be dropped in favour of youth? this thread isnt exactly ground breaking then is it?

but werent we already

playing these players before they were injured?

Interesting that you've edited my post, this was about Ward and Brown.

so do you want 6 defenders on the ground and 3 on the bench?

Rotations comes in many forms

i realise you said either. .

I highly doubt that, you've already misquoted me by suggesting that I said we should play everyone.

so your saying the team is fine except for a few players who need to be dropped in favour of youth? this thread isnt exactly ground breaking then is it?

Do you think the team is ok as it is or do you think there are areas that we need to work on?

Where did I say it was ground breaking? In fact these ideas are as simple as it gets, but I bet they don't happen. Myguess is that the same players that we've used over the last four or five years will be played, making the same disposal errors we've always done.

I'd play Bizzell for the rest of the year - remember what Rivers said about him after winning the Rising Star Award.

What did he say?

What did he say?

He said that he learnt alot from playing alongside Bizzell, and it was probably having him there that helped him play so well. The Biz is good to show the younger guys how to play defence, and leadership in the backline has been an issue for us over the last couple of years.

He said that he learnt alot from playing alongside Bizzell, and it was probably having him there that helped him play so well. The Biz is good to show the younger guys how to play defence, and leadership in the backline has been an issue for us over the last couple of years.

Cheers.

Interesting that you've edited my post, this was about Ward and Brown.

i left of the start of the sentence that had nothing to do with the rest of it. ward and brown havnt been injured. my point is that the only reason wheelan, bartram and rivers arent in is because they are injured so what you are saying is what we are already doing, covering for injured players.

Rotations comes in many forms

thats the most cop out statement ive ever read on the website. explain what you mean. dont use crappy little lines that mean nothing. you said you wanted 9 defenders played in the side. explain how you would rotate them.

I highly doubt that, you've already misquoted me by suggesting that I said we should play everyone.

again, you refuse to answer any of the questions. the best you have suggested is that we play one of 5 players at CHF. if we name 22 players and pick positions out a hat you have a pretty good chance that one of your 5 would play there. who do you want at CHF and why? by not answering you are backing me up that all you did was 'name everyone' without any real plans.

Do you think the team is ok as it is or do you think there are areas that we need to work on?

Where did I say it was ground breaking? In fact these ideas are as simple as it gets, but I bet they don't happen. My guess is that the same players that we've used over the last four or five years will be played, making the same disposal errors we've always done.

i agree that we need to play these kids, but your not suggesting anything of substance. we already are playing the kids. petterd is a first year, he is the only of the 3 debuts to have shown he is up to it straight away. frawley was injured and finally got a run. garland had a go before his time. bell has played 28 games. jones less. brock and sylvia have been injured. CJ hasnt shown any glimpses at afl level and it looks like he needs more time at sandy. newton has shown promise but his promising form has been interrupted with the sandy bye and the SoO game meaning he has only played 1 game in 3 weeks.

what you are suggesting is what is already being done. and i bet that in two weeks you're gonna say 'look everyone, my thread was right', when realistically we've been doing it since round 2.

at the selection table last week what changes would you have made? what would you have done differently?

Good post Jarka. Agree with your comments but we shouldn't pigeon hole some players into the one position. Now that the season is over we need to experiment not only with bringing in some new blood but also trying players in different positions. Some examples of what I would like to see on a rotational basis (there's that word again) is:

- PJ to the forward line

- Green to the forward line (wasted on the back line - he's the best shot for goal in the team)

- Bate to CHF and CHB (depending on the opponent)

- Lynden Dunn to CHB (depending on the opponent)

- Davey to forward pocket as a crumbing goal sneak (Amazing!)

I'm sure there are many others our coaching panel can come up with. The key is to experiment - who knows what might be unearthed.

Lets start to build a strong back 6 develop them together so they can learn to work for each other. Injuries permitting I would like to see our back 6 for the rest of the year as follows

Whelan Carroll Frawley

Bell Rivers Petterd

This should be our best defense for the next 3-4 years. No Holland, Biz, Ward, Brown, Green, Bruce, Ferguson these six are the ones weneed to learn to play down back together for the rest of this year and for the next few years. Hopefully all are over their injuries and don't get injured again this season.

In modern day Football I don't see the need to have two or more tall strong forwards, we have key forwards in Neitz and Robbo who can kick goals, Neitz is getting older but he still has next year and hopefully the one after so we need to focus on our Half forward line. Lets go for a more mobile line Bate, Sylvia, Pickett or change that around to include any of the following Yze, Bruce, Green, Newton, Davey, push Robbo back out htere for short spurts and even Dunn have a hard running Half forward line that can go into the midfield and also push forward to kick goals. Contested marks don't happy accross half forward every team wants to hit a player free or on a strong lead. It will also inject some stronger defensive pressure.

The midfield, wouldn't we love to see Jones, Mclean and Mcdonald in the centre bounce with TJ and Davey of the wings. Thats a pretty good and balanced starting midfield.

Bartram on the back flank ahead of petterd, whose skill and class is better used further up the ground

Bartram on the back flank ahead of petterd, whose skill and class is better used further up the ground

Good discussion in this post. Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen as Daniher is coaching to win so that he keeps his job, and developing kids won't win him as many games as blooding the youth. Theoretically anyway!

what are anyones thought s about possibly Sylvia as CHF.. some may think him a tad short .. but he's still 6'1' ( i beleive ) and with a good grab..and he likes attacking goals.. can set up plays in a forward manner. he seems lost at times in the middle. just an idea.

Jarka..like yourself Id like to see any folly of ideas about accomplishing anything other than foundations for next year simply binned. A good chance for some on field mentoring. if done this would emphasise the 'playing of the game " in respective positions. Like any onthe job training it may not alwasy meet with immediate succcess. So to reiterate a postion I hold..you play to hone and learn.. not to win at all expenses.. ( again..its not flying the white flag, just accepting reality) Its actually a positive move, just no results in next 5 mins.

We'll need to get a bit lateral, accept the failings...and just get on with development

i have always thought Wheatley would make a good foward/ full foward, might be worth a try? nothin to lose.

ive always thought Wheaters worked best with space ahead...which is the reverse of playing forward

wheels carroll frawley

bell rivers pettard

Thats a sweet backline. A bit of class, nice

Let the flaming begin :D

I don't see room for Warnock, Frawley, Carroll, Rivers, and Bizzell can all play in the same team on a regular basis.

I also wouldn't play CJ and Buckley (although I don't know as much about him) in the backline, but would be happy to see them getting a run. I wouldn't insist on playing Sylvia in the middle this season either, given his potential as a forward and his fitness issues.

Other than that it's pretty standard...except perhaps for sidelining Pickett and Yze.

what are anyones thought s about possibly Sylvia as CHF.. some may think him a tad short .. but he's still 6'1' ( i beleive ) and with a good grab..and he likes attacking goals.. can set up plays in a forward manner. he seems lost at times in the middle. just an idea.

I'd be playing him in the forward line. Not sure he's a 'CHF' - certainly not in the mould of the dominant CHF's currently, but it's mroe about how your forward line functions as a whole.

i have always thought Wheatley would make a good foward/ full foward, might be worth a try? nothin to lose.

I'd rather see him up the ground, perhaps on the wing or somewhere thereabouts. I recall a poster stating that Wheatley had said he would prefer to play in a more attacking position (back when he played in our back six fairly regularly).

Good discussion in this post. Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen as Daniher is coaching to win so that he keeps his job, and developing kids won't win him as many games as blooding the youth. Theoretically anyway!

I think Bartram would have been playing ahead of Godfrey if he weren't injured.

- PJ to the forward line

- Green to the forward line (wasted on the back line - he's the best shot for goal in the team)

- Bate to CHF and CHB (depending on the opponent)

- Lynden Dunn to CHB (depending on the opponent)

- Davey to forward pocket as a crumbing goal sneak (Amazing!)

While I agree we can experiment a little it's also important that we have a decent structure so that the team can learn to play good footy (even if we're outgunned and don't have a positive w/l).

I'd like to see PJ play forward a bit more (so he has more game time) as I think he has a decent kick and played up forward when he was younger. However I think Dunn and particularly Bate are wasted in the backline and it's probably better for them to play in positions they're comfortable in while they settle in at AFL level.

GI agree, our defence has been a big weakness in recent years. But with Carrol, Rivers, Bizzell, Whelan and ? Wheatley does not sound too bad. Bell may be OK, still have doubts, he does some real clangers.

I think we need a new game plan however

bell has improved and doesn't make too many clangers as you are suggesting... bell has turned out o be a great prospect for us...

alot of us also think its time for a new game plan.... our back line just needs one more solid player.... wheatley is okay for the moment but maybe sometime next season id be looking to replace him....