We need a cleanout along with a new coach. We need fresh Ideas not the same old excuses that we have been hearing from Daniher for the last 10yrs. It is not acceptable that the team is having up & down seasons anymore. Our older players have been there for 6 seasons eg Bruce, Green,TJ,Robertson,Wheatly, Whelan, Yze, Ward etc and the club needs to ask which of these players can help us win a flag. Some tough decisions need to be made but we need a new coach who does not have a relationship with the playing group to make the tough decisions.

Daniher should have gone at the end of 2003 because history will show that the mental toughness within his teams is a big weakness and nothing has changed in 10yrs. So times up hand the keys in and let someone else have a go!

I knew we were doomed when we sat idle in trade week and did sweet [censored] all to improve the list

Cleanout MAY be a tad extreme. My issue with the club is that when a player is up for contract negs, players have a way of getting the club to cave on demands. We have several players who i wont mention, who are earning MUCH more than they would be at other clubs. We have talent that are on superstar wages, when they perhaps should be on less. this allows us to sepnd less on bigger names that may come up on trade day due to cap constraints.

We need to be tougher with contract negs. If they are going to be a franchise player, then give them a good deal. A fringe player has no right to make strong demands and have them met.

I seriously believe we are in need of a team revamp. Look at these teams: Dogs,Geelong, Hawks, WCE, Brisbane, Essendon. These teams have been bottom 4 at least 2 years and have developed their team to be a potentual premiership side.

I believe that we should cut our loses not and try to finish bottom 4 for 2 years, getting kids and playing them. We will not win a premiership with the current team and with likes of white and neitz out in 2009 then we should follow essendon and Brisbane who have finished bottom 4 for 2 years and now look like an ok team. 2 years of pain is bearable but first ditch the coach.

The other option is to keep playing for finals this year and next, not get there and then look towards the future. The worry with this is by then we could have already finished bommom 2 and looking towards the future.

We already did the bottoming out thing, it's why we've got McLean and Sylvia. I don't want to go through that again. I just want to see the team we've got not play like crap. I don't think that's a huge ask.

Cleanout MAY be a tad extreme. My issue with the club is that when a player is up for contract negs, players have a way of getting the club to cave on demands. We have several players who i wont mention, who are earning MUCH more than they would be at other clubs. We have talent that are on superstar wages, when they perhaps should be on less. this allows us to sepnd less on bigger names that may come up on trade day due to cap constraints.

We need to be tougher with contract negs. If they are going to be a franchise player, then give them a good deal. A fringe player has no right to make strong demands and have them met.

We have a coach that allows the players to under perform & get away with it. Finally he drops Yze to try & sharpen him up, only about 18 months too late. Do you remember the end of '05, Yze was wingeing that he couldn't run because he'd lost his fitness from playing permanent F/pocket. Should have been dropped that year.

Daniher, show some courage that you ask from your players & start dropping senior players that go soft, this may just show the kids the 'right stuff'!

THE FISH ROTS AT THE HEAD FIRST.

Cleanout MAY be a tad extreme. My issue with the club is that when a player is up for contract negs, players have a way of getting the club to cave on demands. We have several players who i wont mention, who are earning MUCH more than they would be at other clubs. We have talent that are on superstar wages, when they perhaps should be on less. this allows us to sepnd less on bigger names that may come up on trade day due to cap constraints.

We need to be tougher with contract negs. If they are going to be a franchise player, then give them a good deal. A fringe player has no right to make strong demands and have them met.

Extreme is to sit back and not make tough decisions and expect things to change.Remember whe Daniher said we have to be more RUTHLESS as club. I do agree with you that the claub is overpaying some players too much which is affecting whats left in the salary cap but Daniher should be accountable for allowing this to happen and not making the tough decisions.

Think about it. We try to win a premiership this year, we could come 7th or 8th. NOT TOP 4. therefor no chance at a GF. If we aim for bommom 2 for 2 years then we can get a good ruckman, a FB, FF and midfielders and play them. We will do this at some stage so y not do it now and be a chance at a gf in 2 years earlier than if we try to contend this year

Think about it. We try to win a premiership this year, we could come 7th or 8th. NOT TOP 4. therefor no chance at a GF. If we aim for bommom 2 for 2 years then we can get a good ruckman, a FB, FF and midfielders and play them. We will do this at some stage so y not do it now and be a chance at a gf in 2 years earlier than if we try to contend this year

I hate to say it, but I tend to agree with you!

I don't want to see us bottom out, but long term, it's for the best. Scraping into the finals for the fourth straight year does nothing but mask the teams deficiencies. It is good for the clubs financial stability, and from that point the last 3 years have been a benefit.....but are we any closer to a flag now than 3 years ago?

My idea is an issue for financial reasons i appreciate that...but if we aim for the finals this and next year and dont scrape in...we are at a disadvantage losing draft picks. Our best chance is in 2 years but i dont see us doing it so lets bottom out for 3 years. By that time, 2010 we will be a presence whereas if we go for finals in 07 and 08 we will most likely loose our first game, disadvantaged by picks and 2 years longer than 2010. A cleanout must happen at some point so lets bring sucsess forward in time and not wait for a cleanout in 2 years.

I do appreciate that we will struggle financially but perhaps theres some way to lighten the load on that department...i dunno really.

The shopping list:

2 x Ruckman

1 x Full forward

1 x Full back

1 x CHB

1 x Back pocket

1 x Half Back Pocket

8 x Midfielders

1 x Coach

I would trade Green + Bruce + Johnstone + Miller as noone would pick up Fergs, Wheatley, Bell, Wheels, Brown, Godfrey etc

I know 3 years is a lot but we must do it at some point and short term pain = long term gain i believe

My idea is an issue for financial reasons i appreciate that...but if we aim for the finals this and next year and dont scrape in...we are at a disadvantage losing draft picks. Our best chance is in 2 years but i dont see us doing it so lets bottom out for 3 years. By that time, 2010 we will be a presence whereas if we go for finals in 07 and 08 we will most likely loose our first game, disadvantaged by picks and 2 years longer than 2010. A cleanout must happen at some point so lets bring sucsess forward in time and not wait for a cleanout in 2 years.

I do appreciate that we will struggle financially but perhaps theres some way to lighten the load on that department...i dunno really.

The shopping list:

2 x Ruckman

1 x Full forward

1 x Full back

1 x CHB

1 x Back pocket

1 x Half Back Pocket

8 x Midfielders

1 x Coach

I would trade Green + Bruce + Johnstone + Miller as noone would pick up Fergs, Wheatley, Bell, Wheels, Brown, Godfrey etc

I know 3 years is a lot but we must do it at some point and short term pain = long term gain i believe

Great Idea

Great Idea

I am happy to have my idea slammed but please explain y u disagree. Otherwise ur comment is useless

I am happy to have my idea slammed but please explain y u disagree. Otherwise ur comment is useless

A) 8 midfielders? Brock, Jones Maloney?

B) FF? Neita? What has he done wrong?

C) You are pretty much saying get a whole new team? I agree with some points. Ruckman for example. But that's a bit extreme.

My idea is an issue for financial reasons i appreciate that...but if we aim for the finals this and next year and dont scrape in...we are at a disadvantage losing draft picks. Our best chance is in 2 years but i dont see us doing it so lets bottom out for 3 years. By that time, 2010 we will be a presence whereas if we go for finals in 07 and 08 we will most likely loose our first game, disadvantaged by picks and 2 years longer than 2010. A cleanout must happen at some point so lets bring sucsess forward in time and not wait for a cleanout in 2 years.

I do appreciate that we will struggle financially but perhaps theres some way to lighten the load on that department...i dunno really.

The shopping list:

2 x Ruckman

1 x Full forward

1 x Full back

1 x CHB

1 x Back pocket

1 x Half Back Pocket

8 x Midfielders

1 x Coach

I would trade Green + Bruce + Johnstone + Miller as noone would pick up Fergs, Wheatley, Bell, Wheels, Brown, Godfrey etc

I know 3 years is a lot but we must do it at some point and short term pain = long term gain i believe

Sad & deppressing as all this sounds, I agree its the only way forward.

After growing up following The Demons in the 70's & early 80's, I think I can handle short term pain.

We need a couple of Garry Lyons boys to mature quickly ala The Ablett duo.

The Father - Son rule hasn't kicked in @ Demonland but The Cats have gone crazy.

Scarlett, Abletts, Blake & now son of Jumping Jack.

We must have one smokey out there????????????????

I am happy to have my idea slammed but please explain y u disagree. Otherwise ur comment is useless

0cco, Your idea may be bordering on blasphemy at round 2 of this season! BUT with a list that is becoming cruelled by injury and the poor form that we have seen it may well work in our favour. Port decided to send their players to the OR and play the kids, and it looks like a wise decision on their part. I have read a post that shows the next 8 rounds and we could lose all of these games. We will not be able to draft ready made footballers, but we certainly would have a better chance of picking up an established ruckman, or key back with these picks and trades. I am curious as to wether we will see a coaching change during the year in order to get the Lyon/Judd double to the club?

How long is this rebuilding process going to continue?

Our club may not survive through another sustained period of crap.

My idea is an issue for financial reasons i appreciate that...but if we aim for the finals this and next year and dont scrape in...we are at a disadvantage losing draft picks. Our best chance is in 2 years but i dont see us doing it so lets bottom out for 3 years. By that time, 2010 we will be a presence whereas if we go for finals in 07 and 08 we will most likely loose our first game, disadvantaged by picks and 2 years longer than 2010. A cleanout must happen at some point so lets bring sucsess forward in time and not wait for a cleanout in 2 years.

I do appreciate that we will struggle financially but perhaps theres some way to lighten the load on that department...i dunno really.

The shopping list:

2 x Ruckman

1 x Full forward

1 x Full back

1 x CHB

1 x Back pocket

1 x Half Back Pocket

8 x Midfielders

1 x Coach

I would trade Green + Bruce + Johnstone + Miller as noone would pick up Fergs, Wheatley, Bell, Wheels, Brown, Godfrey etc

I know 3 years is a lot but we must do it at some point and short term pain = long term gain i believe

Cannot agree!

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water there!

Don't underestimate the ability of a new coach to come in and bring in new tactics / ideas / methods that can turn players once considered as simply expendable as key ingredients of a winning team.

Do you think Cameron Bruce or Brad Green would be the players we know them as now if they were both running around for Sydney ?

How much better does Steve Armstrong look now he is playing within a system where he understands his role?

You can't tear the heart out of the playing list and expect improvement........you can however make changes to maximize what you have.

A) 8 midfielders? Brock, Jones Maloney?

B) FF? Neita? What has he done wrong?

C) You are pretty much saying get a whole new team? I agree with some points. Ruckman for example. But that's a bit extreme.

Im going to shut u down badly here so beware

AA) Midfielders well i feel that players like C.Johnson, Green (who is a forward dispite what danners says), Godfrey are not our future. Green should play forward. C.Johnson will never be THAT great and godfrey well enough said. We need some tallent, some pace and can get that from recruiting midfielders to learn alongside Jones, Brock, Moloney, Sylvia. They will act as good depth too.

BB) Neitz is gone in 2 years. I have already said if u read all my post that were looking towards the future (ie 3 years). Even if neitz is there then (which he wont) we need another one for when he leaves.

CC) No im not. Im suggesting we trade some players and recruit some new players to learn alongside players like Brock who will be old enough to have these players learning from brock.

2 x Ruckman - White gone we need 2 as Jamar and Johnson are not good

1 x Full forward - Neitz out in 2 years

1 x Full back - Carroll not the answer...depth he is

1 x CHB - Rivers is superbe but i feel hes half back pocket. we need another for depth

1 x Back pocket - Wheels gone we need another small backman

1 x Half Back Pocket - or back pocket as Bell is not our future.

8 x Midfielders - Depth and loss of McDonnald and trading Bruce, TJ (we can get better potentual for draft picks for loosing them)

1 x Coach - Do i need to explain

I was supprised u said Neitz? lol hes our future is he?

0cco, Your idea may be bordering on blasphemy at round 2 of this season! BUT with a list that is becoming cruelled by injury and the poor form that we have seen it may well work in our favour. Port decided to send their players to the OR and play the kids, and it looks like a wise decision on their part. I have read a post that shows the next 8 rounds and we could lose all of these games. We will not be able to draft ready made footballers, but we certainly would have a better chance of picking up an established ruckman, or key back with these picks and trades. I am curious as to wether we will see a coaching change during the year in order to get the Lyon/Judd double to the club?

I am thinking long term. I dont understand people who think melb can compete with Brisbane, Hawks, WCE, Port, Essendon! Its madness and although i disagree with most of ur points i would like to see a new coach now!

I am thinking long term. I dont understand people who think melb can compete with Brisbane, Hawks, WCE, Port, Essendon! Its madness and although i disagree with most of ur points i would like to see a new coach now!

I meant what u are suggesting may work in our favour in the long term. Somehow we seem to have missed the cycle again!

We were lucky with injuries last year, this year we haven't been so lucky. The same player's continue to get exposed however. I am not sure it is a list problem per se... even the worst list in history only turned over eight players, and we are nowhere near that. My view is that the band needs a new conductor, though those musicians playing to a different tune may need to be traded/delisted.

A cleanout is dramatic. We need MANY changes in terms of players IN's and OUT's for next week... once again, we are playing catchup footy.

Of the cuff - and with acknowledgment that a change of coach may result in improved performances from some players. I may be being negative but I see another season slippng away and am beginning to doubt that the Daniher /Cameron era is going to lead to a flag.

Rucks

White is a 195cm Follower. Relies on his leap against his taller opponents, leap has diminished with age and has also being impacted by the centre circle. Can't mark overhead and just isn't a physical player. Neaves is the best tap ruckman at the club, can take an overhead mark and has good disposal - needs to bulk up more but I'd play him this week. Jamar seems ineffective in the ruck but can mark overhead and is an accurate shot at goal. I'd play him at FF this week with Neaves as the second ruck. Johnson needs to improve both his ruckwork and marking but is very athletic for a big unit and is also a nice kick.

Midfield/Utilities

We lack pace and class - there are no Judds, Deledios or Kerrs or etc in our team. Obviously we need Maclean, Jones and Sylvia to be injury free as a starting point as as they look like better players than their senior teammates. Maclean and Jones are tough inside players and Sylivia is that but quicker and with the ability to go forward. Moloney is quick, physical and a good kick but is coming back after missing most of last season with OP. McDonald was All Australian last year but is hardly a player who gets tagged. Bruce and Johnstone go missing too often and are clanger prone. Green is not quick enough to be a receiver and is never going to be an inside midfielder. Pickett has had his traditionally unprofessional preparation and once again won't reach an acceptable standard of fitness till Round 6. Bartram is quick and smart but is injured again. Bell and C Johnson are quick and can use the ball. Bell is obviously ahead of C Johnson in development but both are key because of their pace. Bate has had an indifferent start to the season but showed much promise last year. Ward is quick but his disposal is erratic. Wheatley is at the crossroads, plays small for his height and there must be doubts over his abilities to adapt the ever quicker pace of the game. Godders has nice hands but his kicking is erratic and his decision making slow. Nathan Brown always gives 100% but never really hurts a team with his disposal.

Forwards

Neitz and Robbo are coming to the end. Miller played better today but is a hard working leading centre half forward rather than an inside 50 target. Davey is out of form but we know his speed, talent and defensive pressure. What is coming through in key forwards? Dunn is one obvious shining light, leads and marks well and is a good kick. Newton shapes as an enigmatic roaming forward but is he ready for AFL?, Garland showed some promising signs but will need more time to develop. Yze has skill but has been allowed to get away with no defensice side to his game for too long.

Defence

Rivers is a quality player a la Sean Wellman though is not strong enough to play as a true key defender. Carroll is honest and can be creative. Whelan is a good small defender. Holland is an inconsistent mark and has poor disposal. Coming through as key defenders are, well that'd be James Frawley, and um that'd be it. There is Ferguson but he is still reed thin and his disposal for Sandy against the Cats was not great. Still he should have played ahead of Wheatley and shoulds come in to match up on one of the Cat's Tall Forwards.

.....a team for a couple of years in the future

B Whelan Frawley Bartram

HB Bell Rivers C Johnson

C Sylivia Mclean Bate

HF Newton Miller Bruce

F Green Dunn Davey

R Neaves Jones Moloney

I/C Johnstone Pettard Jamar ?

.....a team for a couple of years in the future

B Whelan Frawley Bartram

HB Bell Rivers C Johnson

C Sylivia Mclean Bate

HF Newton Miller Bruce

F Green Dunn Davey

R Neaves Jones Moloney

I/C Johnstone Pettard Jamar ?

Hang on, how old is Whelan?

lets get a new coach.its time for some new strategy and idea's. he has been at the club too long and he has been serviceable. the players need to be dropped when playing ordinary, have some pride in themselves and feel pain when you lose. seems they only want to chat with other players and joke around after the game. its not good enough. i hate to say this, but essendon last year didnt give up when they were in strife and sheedy didnt hesitate to drop players out of form when he needed them most. give some young kids a run and give the old blokes a lesson in wanting to play 4 quarters like the young guys who are keen and hungry.