Training - Thursday, 4th April 2019

[dieter 3,325]

35 minutes ago, sue said:

And as most of those people know the Nazi party sprang from absolutely nowhere and had no interest in the themes of a lot of his music or his political and antisemitic writings on music.  Not total lunacy I'm afraid.

Sue, please read George Steiner about European Anti-Semitism: Dreyfus was only the surface. Anti-Semitism was rife everywhere. Steiner, in fact, said that based on Anti-Semitic discourse and actions in the 19th century, were you to predict where something as horrible as what the Nazis did would happen, you would have nominated France. Nazis didn't spring out of Wagner's music, they sprang from the political climate of 19th and early 20th century European history. I don't want to be controversial or argue with you, but if you want an insight into the depth and length and breadth of European Anti Semitism, please read Steiner. Or, read the text of Shakespeare's plays where there are Jewish characters....

Also, there are no Nazi themes in Wagner's music or his libretti. Most of them are based on  quasi religious folkloric mumbo jumbo.The fact that Nazis played Wagner's music does not mean the music is anti-semitic. Had Wagner written specifically for Nazis in their time that would be different. The Nazis also played Anton Bruckner, a quaint devout Catholic who fell in love with chambermaids

Or, if you want a really erudite discussion about Wagner's music have a chat with Daniel Barenboim.

Edited April 5, 2019 by dieter

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

1 hour ago, dieter said:

Sue, please read George Steiner about European Anti-Semitism: Dreyfus was only the surface. Anti-Semitism was rife everywhere. Steiner, in fact, said that based on Anti-Semitic discourse and actions in the 19th century, were you to predict where something as horrible as what the Nazis did would happen, you would have nominated France. Nazis didn't spring out of Wagner's music, they sprang from the political climate of 19th and early 20th century European history. I don't want to be controversial or argue with you, but if you want an insight into the depth and length and breadth of European Anti Semitism, please read Steiner. Or, read the text of Shakespeare's plays where there are Jewish characters....

Also, there are no Nazi themes in Wagner's music or his libretti. Most of them are based on  quasi religious folkloric mumbo jumbo.The fact that Nazis played Wagner's music does not mean the music is anti-semitic. Had Wagner written specifically for Nazis in their time that would be different. The Nazis also played Anton Bruckner, a quaint devout Catholic who fell in love with chambermaids

Or, if you want a really erudite discussion about Wagner's music have a chat with Daniel Barenboim.

I remember Daniel Barenboim, he was a good back pocket, sorry wrong thread, I thought this was about footy

[sue 9,106]

Dieter - I don't recall saying Wagner was single-handedly responsible for the rise of the Nazi party and antisemitism. 

But if the Wagner Bros don't perform well tonight, there will be an outburst of anti-Wagnerism in this house tonight.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,754]

40 minutes ago, sue said:

Dieter - I don't recall saying Wagner was single-handedly responsible for the rise of the Nazi party and antisemitism. 

But if the Wagner Bros don't perform well tonight, there will be an outburst of anti-Wagnerism in this house tonight.

Nice pivot. Gets the thread back on track.

I'm going to be at the game, but if I were watching on TV or listening on radio, I'd be might disappointed if none of the commentators mention how the Wagners looked "composed".