On 4/30/2018 at 12:55 PM, hardtack said:

This is the third time since 2004 (or was it 2006?) that the North and South have had "meaningful" discussions and taken significant steps towards a lasting peace.  The first two times saw hostilities quickly renewed and I see nothing that gives me any confidence that things will be any different this time.  Kim Jong Un is a loose canon and is likely to back track in no time flat and similarly, Donald Trump is just as likely to change the whole scenario with a couple of badly timed and ill thought out early morning tweets.

I have given him a tick for getting talks happening - but the pen I used was filled with erasable ink . Happy to make it a permanent tick when there is some concrete progress. ( the question is when exactly do you make a tick permanent  - I seem to recall some Nobel peace prizes being handed out for a Israel/Palestine peace accord - hmmm)

6 hours ago, nutbean said:

I have given him a tick for getting talks happening - but the pen I used was filled with erasable ink . Happy to make it a permanent tick when there is some concrete progress. ( the question is when exactly do you make a tick permanent  - I seem to recall some Nobel peace prizes being handed out for a Israel/Palestine peace accord - hmmm)

Wasn't that the one awarded to Begin? I much prefer Einstein and Arendt's view of Begin- a terrorist who headed an institution which behaved like the Nazis. Yes, in a letter published in the New York Times in 1947 or 48, signed by about thirty other peace loving Jews.

If Trump actually manages to get nuclear weapons off the Korean peninsular I'll be the first (well, second - he'll be the first) to congratulate him. But so far, he's achieved nothing more than Bush did with his "Mission Accomplished" PR stunt (half a million dead and counting).

 

Colleagues of mine who've studied this issue opine that the real mover behind all of this is Xi Jin Ping (who I presume doesn't want a pair of fat psychopaths hurling missiles at each other so close to his kingdom).  

18 hours ago, dieter said:

Wasn't that the one awarded to Begin? I much prefer Einstein and Arendt's view of Begin- a terrorist who headed an institution which behaved like the Nazis. Yes, in a letter published in the New York Times in 1947 or 48, signed by about thirty other peace loving Jews.

it was 1948.

I have no quarrel with labelling Irgun a terrorist organisation - no better or worse than Hamas and Hezbollah, IRA etc - any organisation that has no qualms about killing innocents for political gain. i have no problem with denouncing their methods.

I always have an issue with throwing the word Nazi as a descriptive - in modern history we have not had a collective whose philosophy and political agenda was to completely eradicate a race/religion/colour or creed of people from the face of the earth,. Most terrorist groups, as abhorrent as their methods are, usually make their agenda territorial. ( ie removal of peoples from their "land"). The nazi's are in category of their own and nobody in modern history has behaved like nazi's.

 

( small disclaimer - there are some small nutjob groups who have the eradication philosophy but not the size or relevance to be able to do it - the Nazi's will always be unique., hopefully, in that they had an horrific ideology with the machinery to make it happen)

 

5 hours ago, nutbean said:

it was 1948.

I have no quarrel with labelling Irgun a terrorist organisation - no better or worse than Hamas and Hezbollah, IRA etc - any organisation that has no qualms about killing innocents for political gain. i have no problem with denouncing their methods.

I always have an issue with throwing the word Nazi as a descriptive - in modern history we have not had a collective whose philosophy and political agenda was to completely eradicate a race/religion/colour or creed of people from the face of the earth,. Most terrorist groups, as abhorrent as their methods are, usually make their agenda territorial. ( ie removal of peoples from their "land"). The nazi's are in category of their own and nobody in modern history has behaved like nazi's.

 

( small disclaimer - there are some small nutjob groups who have the eradication philosophy but not the size or relevance to be able to do it - the Nazi's will always be unique., hopefully, in that they had an horrific ideology with the machinery to make it happen)

 

I tried to post the letter yesterday> it seemed to have been censored. It's actually the letter which uses the word Nazi: I am only quoting.

New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed. A letter to The New York Times. Saturday December 4, 1948 by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al.

New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed. A letter to The New York Times, published in the "Books" section (Page 12) of Saturday December 4, 1948

by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al.

Source: Text from original microfilm

TO THE EDITORS OF NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ,
HANNAH ARENDT,
ABRAHAM BRICK,
RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO,
ALBERT EINSTEIN,
HERMAN EISEN, M.D.,
HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D.,
H.H. HARRIS,
ZELIG S. HARRIS,
SIDNEY HOOK,
FRED KARUSH,
BRURIA KAUFMAN,
IRMA L. LINDHEIM,
NACHMAN MAISEL,
SEYMOUR MELMAN,
MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D.,
HARRY M. OSLINSKY,
SAMUEL PITLICK,
FRITZ ROHRLICH,
LOUIS P. ROCKER,
RUTH SAGIS,
ITZHAK SANKOWSKY,
I.J. SHOENBERG,
SAMUEL SHUMAN,
M. SINGER,
IRMA WOLFE,
STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948

15 hours ago, dieter said:

I tried to post the letter yesterday> it seemed to have been censored. It's actually the letter which uses the word Nazi: I am only quoting.

 

I realised that it was a quote from the letter not yourself. I also realise I am arguing language. However as I said, when anyone wants to make a comparison it is important that comparison is appropriate and whilst there have been a lot of atrocities ( too many atrocities) committed in the name of Nationalist aspirations and "freedom" comparing anything to Nazi's is not appropriate as nothing has come close to them. We have numerous examples of regional ethnic/religious/race cleansing. We have only once in modern history seen an attempt at global religious cleansing.

21 minutes ago, nutbean said:

I realised that it was a quote from the letter not yourself. I also realise I am arguing language. However as I said, when anyone wants to make a comparison it is important that comparison is appropriate and whilst there have been a lot of atrocities ( too many atrocities) committed in the name of Nationalist aspirations and "freedom" comparing anything to Nazi's is not appropriate as nothing has come close to them. We have numerous examples of regional ethnic/religious/race cleansing. We have only once in modern history seen an attempt at global religious cleansing.

I get your point, Nutbean and I understand it. My question is to do with the difference it makes to the ethnically cleansed/murdered whether it was a global policy or a regional policy.

I speak from experience. My mother's family was ethnically cleansed in October 1944 by Tito's whatever you want to call them. The men in my mother's city were gathered in the sports stadium enclave, not fed or sheltered for 3 days then shot. My mother was put in a cattle truck like in the Spielberg movies, with all the German women under 40 from that district, a  soldier's helmet in the center of the carriage to be used as a urinal/[censored] bucket, and after a train journey where no-one was fed, that lasted 6 days they disembarked on the outskirts of a city in the Ukraine, then called Stalino. They were taken to a bauxite mine where they worked 12 hours a day for 7 days a week and most of them died of typhoid and malnutrition and exhaustion. My mother was released in April 1947. She weighed 44 kilos.A few of my mother's fellow inmates weren't released until 1950.

To my mother's credit she never blamed anybody, spoke glowingly about the kind Ukrainian farming families who showed them kindness and gave them food when they could.Most tellingly, from my perspective, the experience filled her with compassion for all the other people in the world who have  suffered similar fates. She said to me once that she could not imagine how anyone who had survived what she had survived could treat other human beings in the way they had been treated.

Edited May 4, 20186 yr by dieter

I guess for me the distinction has been and will be that as bad as ALL atrocities are, nearly all the terrorists mindset is that there is a "peaceful" end goal - if you remove the offending race/colour/religion/creed/government from a limited area then the goal is accomplished - Hezbollah - removal of Jews from Israel, IRA - Brits out of Ireland, ANC, Irgun, and countless more etc etc. The Nazi's pressured their allies to give up their Jews for extermination in lands they had no interest in occupying or controlling. The Nazi's pressured the Japanese to hand over the Jews in Shanghai ( which they did not do) and pressured the Italians to hand over their Jews in Italy - which they did do. The also made their satellite states hand over their Jews for extermination.

7 hours ago, nutbean said:

I guess for me the distinction has been and will be that as bad as ALL atrocities are, nearly all the terrorists mindset is that there is a "peaceful" end goal - if you remove the offending race/colour/religion/creed/government from a limited area then the goal is accomplished - Hezbollah - removal of Jews from Israel, IRA - Brits out of Ireland, ANC, Irgun, and countless more etc etc. The Nazi's pressured their allies to give up their Jews for extermination in lands they had no interest in occupying or controlling. The Nazi's pressured the Japanese to hand over the Jews in Shanghai ( which they did not do) and pressured the Italians to hand over their Jews in Italy - which they did do. The also made their satellite states hand over their Jews for extermination.

Not all Nazi satellites complied, Nutbean. The Bulgarians didn't, the Danes didn't and the Albanians didn't. The French, the Italians and the Hungarians complied. It's the people of Denmark, Bulgaria and Albania who are/ were the heroes. My heart goes out to them. They showed the face of humanity and compassion. As did many Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, Italians and French people. They are the true heroes of the world.

On 5/4/2018 at 7:11 PM, dieter said:

Not all Nazi satellites complied, Nutbean. The Bulgarians didn't, the Danes didn't and the Albanians didn't. The French, the Italians and the Hungarians complied. It's the people of Denmark, Bulgaria and Albania who are/ were the heroes. My heart goes out to them. They showed the face of humanity and compassion. As did many Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, Italians and French people. They are the true heroes of the world.

Denmark wasn't a satellite - that aside, have you read re the King of Denmark and the movement of their Jews - a remarkable story.

And yes there are amazing stories of courage, humanity and compassion.

I know i was arguing semantics - bottom line form small to large - there are fair to many atrocities that have happened and we don't learn much from history and they continue to happen.

Oh dear our Donald has now torn up the deal with Iran on non nuclear proliferation based on some dodgey info from the Isrealies that Iran is still developing a nuclear capability. This revelation is contradicted by the UN observers and the US intelligence agencies and US allies in Europe. For what strategic gain only Donald knows. Yes Iran is no cleanskin but it is engaged in a battle with the Saudis for influence in the middle eastern political vacuum created by Bush’s disastrous war in Iraq. Why are the Americans so wedded to the Saudi Regime, a medieval kingdom existing in the 21st century with a barbaric record of treatment of those who transgress their archaic laws. Who manned the planes in 9/11? Yet Iran is the problem. Now we have the possibility of an Israel vs Iran conflict (they are already shooting at each other in Syria) that will give the green light for US aggression. 

Scary times I think because we have too many testerone driven narcissists in vital positions of power in this area of conflict, Netti, Donald, Puttin, the Ayatollahs and worldly princes of the House of Saud, may God help us all! 

 

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

Oh dear our Donald has now torn up the deal with Iran on non nuclear proliferation based on some dodgey info from the Isrealies that Iran is still developing a nuclear capability. This revelation is contradicted by the UN observers and the US intelligence agencies and US allies in Europe. For what strategic gain only Donald knows. Yes Iran is no cleanskin but it is engaged in a battle with the Saudis for influence in the middle eastern political vacuum created by Bush’s disastrous war in Iraq. Why are the Americans so wedded to the Saudi Regime, a medieval kingdom existing in the 21st century with a barbaric record of treatment of those who transgress their archaic laws. Who manned the planes in 9/11? Yet Iran is the problem. Now we have the possibility of an Israel vs Iran conflict (they are already shooting at each other in Syria) that will give the green light for US aggression. 

Scary times I think because we have too many testerone driven narcissists in vital positions of power in this area of conflict, Netti, Donald, Puttin, the Ayatollahs and worldly princes of the House of Saud, may God help us all! 

 

EH you were most likely envisaging disaster when he was taunting little rocket man.

i note he welcomed 3 Americans unfairly imprisoned in North Korea back to the USA at 2am this morning.

Trump’s brash, unpredictable (if you see the world through a leftist lens) and forthright diplomacy is the shakeup /medicine the international stage so desperately needed.

iran won’t be sponsoring terrorism by proxy for much longer.

On 5/10/2018 at 8:47 PM, Earl Hood said:

Oh dear our Donald has now torn up the deal with Iran on non nuclear proliferation based on some dodgey info from the Isrealies that Iran is still developing a nuclear capability. This revelation is contradicted by the UN observers and the US intelligence agencies and US allies in Europe. For what strategic gain only Donald knows. Yes Iran is no cleanskin but it is engaged in a battle with the Saudis for influence in the middle eastern political vacuum created by Bush’s disastrous war in Iraq. Why are the Americans so wedded to the Saudi Regime, a medieval kingdom existing in the 21st century with a barbaric record of treatment of those who transgress their archaic laws. Who manned the planes in 9/11? Yet Iran is the problem. Now we have the possibility of an Israel vs Iran conflict (they are already shooting at each other in Syria) that will give the green light for US aggression. 

Scary times I think because we have too many testerone driven narcissists in vital positions of power in this area of conflict, Netti, Donald, Puttin, the Ayatollahs and worldly princes of the House of Saud, may God help us all! 

 

You should never appease a rogue police state.  Only the deluded and the Left think otherwise.

You would have been one of the appeasers that Churchill had to fight in the 1930s.  I doubt even you'd deny that.

Good to see Trump delivering on yet another pre-election promise.

On 5/10/2018 at 8:47 PM, Earl Hood said:

Oh dear our Donald has now torn up the deal with Iran on non nuclear proliferation based on some dodgey info from the Isrealies that Iran is still developing a nuclear capability. This revelation is contradicted by the UN observers and the US intelligence agencies and US allies in Europe. For what strategic gain only Donald knows. Yes Iran is no cleanskin but it is engaged in a battle with the Saudis for influence in the middle eastern political vacuum created by Bush’s disastrous war in Iraq. Why are the Americans so wedded to the Saudi Regime, a medieval kingdom existing in the 21st century with a barbaric record of treatment of those who transgress their archaic laws. Who manned the planes in 9/11? Yet Iran is the problem. Now we have the possibility of an Israel vs Iran conflict (they are already shooting at each other in Syria) that will give the green light for US aggression. 

Scary times I think because we have too many testerone driven narcissists in vital positions of power in this area of conflict, Netti, Donald, Puttin, the Ayatollahs and worldly princes of the House of Saud, may God help us all! 

 

I agree with you broadly. Of course, we now have to put up with the remarks of the very far right wing, those who delude themselves that the greatest terrorist organisation in world are the good guys, the people who lied about Vietnam, Iraq twice, Libya and Syria. Also the same people who totally destroyed North Korea in the 50's, the same people who toppled the democratically government of Iran and installed their puppet, the Shah.. 

Yay, god help us all

Edited May 15, 20186 yr by dieter

7 hours ago, ProDee said:

You should never appease a rogue police state.  Only the deluded and the Left think otherwise.

You would have been one of the appeasers that Churchill had to fight in the 1930s.  I doubt even you'd deny that.

Good to see Trump delivering on yet another pre-election promise.

Yes I will deny that! Pro if you call me a lefty I will call you a right wing conservative and guess who were the Hitler appeasers in 1930’s? Yes it was the conservatives, the left turned away from appeasement in the mid to late 30’s. There were conservatives and royals who thought the fascists were on the right track.  Not sure where you would have stood if you were around in the 1930’s by the way with your values. After all Adolf up to 1938 or so was just a pro nationalist promoting Germany and jobs for the German people. He talked tough and promoted national values, just the sort of talk you celebrate with Trump. I think you might have been an early Hitler groupie back then before he turned feral of course. 

Rogue police state? Rogue means not on your side I guess, so yes Iran is on the other side of the US alliances, so it must be evil in your opinion. 

Police state well yes but no more than Saudi Arabia I would have thought. Iran has elections however imperfect, Saudi has royal Ascension to the thrown. Both could be deemed police states. At least Iran is not a medieval kingdom that carries out routine and regular public executions I think. 

I see Trump has delivered on yet another promise to open a US Embassy in Jerusalem, that has led to Palestinian riots and some 52 deaths and hundreds of injured people. The Gazans are throwing stones, the Israeli forces are shooting people! Another Trump policy triumph. The last hope for the Palestinians is the two state solution but that is all but dead without Jerusalem. 

Can anyone explain to me the difference between modern day Gaza and it’s relationship with the Israel State and a 1930’s Jewish Ghetto in Germany and it’s relationship with Nazi ruled Germany? 

Palestinian deaths now over 60, (including children). Over a thousand others hospitalised with gunshot wounds.

Israeli casualties: zip.

Pretty easy to see who are the terrorists here.  

 

12 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Yes I will deny that! Pro if you call me a lefty I will call you a right wing conservative and guess who were the Hitler appeasers in 1930’s? Yes it was the conservatives, the left turned away from appeasement in the mid to late 30’s. There were conservatives and royals who thought the fascists were on the right track.  Not sure where you would have stood if you were around in the 1930’s by the way with your values. After all Adolf up to 1938 or so was just a pro nationalist promoting Germany and jobs for the German people. He talked tough and promoted national values, just the sort of talk you celebrate with Trump. I think you might have been an early Hitler groupie back then before he turned feral of course. 

Rogue police state? Rogue means not on your side I guess, so yes Iran is on the other side of the US alliances, so it must be evil in your opinion. 

Police state well yes but no more than Saudi Arabia I would have thought. Iran has elections however imperfect, Saudi has royal Ascension to the thrown. Both could be deemed police states. At least Iran is not a medieval kingdom that carries out routine and regular public executions I think. 

I see Trump has delivered on yet another promise to open a US Embassy in Jerusalem, that has led to Palestinian riots and some 52 deaths and hundreds of injured people. The Gazans are throwing stones, the Israeli forces are shooting people! Another Trump policy triumph. The last hope for the Palestinians is the two state solution but that is all but dead without Jerusalem. 

Can anyone explain to me the difference between modern day Gaza and it’s relationship with the Israel State and a 1930’s Jewish Ghetto in Germany and it’s relationship with Nazi ruled Germany? 

About time that was said!

Let's be honest. No-one really gives a rat's about the Palestinians - they're only ever mentioned in relation to Israel, including by posters on this board. 

No mention of the 450,000 Palestinians in Syria, 95 per cent of whom are in dire need of humanitarian assistance in order to survive, and 280,000 of whom are internally displaced. Even the UNRWA - their specialist UN-appointed agency - doesn't mention the estimated 13,000 Palestinians who are political prisoners in Syria, of which an estimated 700 have been murdered. Palestinians in Syria are actually prohibited from leaving that country - they're trapped in what must surely be the greatest hell on earth at the moment.

But hey, there's no need to talk about that, when we can compare Israel to apartheid South Africa or, better still, to Nazi Germany. 

As for your question @Earl Hood, it's clear you know very little about World War II, and I seem to recall we've argued before about your penchant for describing anyone/thing you don't agree with as a Nazi / fascist.

So here's a bit about the ghetto of Piotrokow, where my father's parents were, and which was the first ghetto to be established in Europe.

In total, between 16,500-28,000 Jews went through Piotrokow on their way to the Treblinka and Majdanek death camps. As Wikipedia notes:

"The Ghetto liquidation action began on the night of October 13, 1942, commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Willy Blum. About 1,000 Jews unable to move were shot in their homes for "insubordination". By the next morning, some 22,000 Jews were herded onto the square by the Synagogue in order to undergo a "selection". In the course of the next few days, Jews were marched in columns to the railway station and loaded onto the awaiting freight trains without food or water, 150 to one car....Many non-Jewish Poles were murdered by the Gestapo for helping Jews....Following the 1942 deportations to Majdanek and Treblinka extermination camps, some 3,500 Jewish factory workers still remained in the small Ghetto. However, mass executions became more frequent in 1943, even inside the depleted Synagogue, in the Jewish cemetery, and at a special execution site near Raków. By 1944 only 1,000 Jews were still alive." 

So let's do it this way: Rather than me point out the differences between Gaza and the Nazi ghettoes, why don't you point out all the similarities, making sure you explain how Gaza is a holding place for Palestinians on their way to Israeli-run extermination camps, and how many tens of thousands of Palestinians have already been murdered in a systematic program of genocide.  

54 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

Let's be honest. No-one really gives a rat's about the Palestinians - they're only ever mentioned in relation to Israel, including by posters on this board. 

No mention of the 450,000 Palestinians in Syria, 95 per cent of whom are in dire need of humanitarian assistance in order to survive, and 280,000 of whom are internally displaced. Even the UNRWA - their specialist UN-appointed agency - doesn't mention the estimated 13,000 Palestinians who are political prisoners in Syria, of which an estimated 700 have been murdered. Palestinians in Syria are actually prohibited from leaving that country - they're trapped in what must surely be the greatest hell on earth at the moment.

But hey, there's no need to talk about that, when we can compare Israel to apartheid South Africa or, better still, to Nazi Germany. 

As for your question @Earl Hood, it's clear you know very little about World War II, and I seem to recall we've argued before about your penchant for describing anyone/thing you don't agree with as a Nazi / fascist.

So here's a bit about the ghetto of Piotrokow, where my father's parents were, and which was the first ghetto to be established in Europe.

In total, between 16,500-28,000 Jews went through Piotrokow on their way to the Treblinka and Majdanek death camps. As Wikipedia notes:

"The Ghetto liquidation action began on the night of October 13, 1942, commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Willy Blum. About 1,000 Jews unable to move were shot in their homes for "insubordination". By the next morning, some 22,000 Jews were herded onto the square by the Synagogue in order to undergo a "selection". In the course of the next few days, Jews were marched in columns to the railway station and loaded onto the awaiting freight trains without food or water, 150 to one car....Many non-Jewish Poles were murdered by the Gestapo for helping Jews....Following the 1942 deportations to Majdanek and Treblinka extermination camps, some 3,500 Jewish factory workers still remained in the small Ghetto. However, mass executions became more frequent in 1943, even inside the depleted Synagogue, in the Jewish cemetery, and at a special execution site near Raków. By 1944 only 1,000 Jews were still alive." 

So let's do it this way: Rather than me point out the differences between Gaza and the Nazi ghettoes, why don't you point out all the similarities, making sure you explain how Gaza is a holding place for Palestinians on their way to Israeli-run extermination camps, and how many tens of thousands of Palestinians have already been murdered in a systematic program of genocide.  

Hi Grapeviney

As much as the story of your poor grandparents is horrendous and totally disgusting from the point of view of human behaviour - the behaviour of the Nazis and their henchmen - a good Jewish friend of mine once said - Ed was one of the founding member of the Israeli Air Force, he is a Hero of Israel - that any Jew who mentions the Holocaust in relation to what Israelis are doing/have done  to Palestinians/Palestine needs to have brought to their intention that the murder and treatment of Palestinians has absolutely nothing to do with the Holocaust. 

I would love you to imagine what it might be like to be a Palestinian in Gaza, the West Bank, or any other of the Occupied Territories.It would require an effort to walk in another downtrodden man's shoes and it would probably go against all of your inclinations to avoid the responsibility that Israel has for its horrendous behaviour and track record.

I repeat, Treblinka has absolutely nothing to do with the murder of Palestinians by snipers of the IDF.

50 minutes ago, dieter said:

Hi Grapeviney

As much as the story of your poor grandparents is horrendous and totally disgusting from the point of view of human behaviour - the behaviour of the Nazis and their henchmen - a good Jewish friend of mine once said - Ed was one of the founding member of the Israeli Air Force, he is a Hero of Israel - that any Jew who mentions the Holocaust in relation to what Israelis are doing/have done  to Palestinians/Palestine needs to have brought to their intention that the murder and treatment of Palestinians has absolutely nothing to do with the Holocaust. 

I would love you to imagine what it might be like to be a Palestinian in Gaza, the West Bank, or any other of the Occupied Territories.It would require an effort to walk in another downtrodden man's shoes and it would probably go against all of your inclinations to avoid the responsibility that Israel has for its horrendous behaviour and track record.

I repeat, Treblinka has absolutely nothing to do with the murder of Palestinians by snipers of the IDF.

Not sure why your comment is directed at me - it was Earl who made the comparison and linked the two. You're effectively agreeing with me.

18 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Yes I will deny that! Pro if you call me a lefty I will call you a right wing conservative and guess who were the Hitler appeasers in 1930’s? Yes it was the conservatives, the left turned away from appeasement in the mid to late 30’s. There were conservatives and royals who thought the fascists were on the right track.  Not sure where you would have stood if you were around in the 1930’s by the way with your values. After all Adolf up to 1938 or so was just a pro nationalist promoting Germany and jobs for the German people. He talked tough and promoted national values, just the sort of talk you celebrate with Trump. I think you might have been an early Hitler groupie back then before he turned feral of course. 

Rogue police state? Rogue means not on your side I guess, so yes Iran is on the other side of the US alliances, so it must be evil in your opinion. 

Police state well yes but no more than Saudi Arabia I would have thought. Iran has elections however imperfect, Saudi has royal Ascension to the thrown. Both could be deemed police states. At least Iran is not a medieval kingdom that carries out routine and regular public executions I think. 

I see Trump has delivered on yet another promise to open a US Embassy in Jerusalem, that has led to Palestinian riots and some 52 deaths and hundreds of injured people. The Gazans are throwing stones, the Israeli forces are shooting people! Another Trump policy triumph. The last hope for the Palestinians is the two state solution but that is all but dead without Jerusalem. 

Can anyone explain to me the difference between modern day Gaza and it’s relationship with the Israel State and a 1930’s Jewish Ghetto in Germany and it’s relationship with Nazi ruled Germany? 

I don't need a history lesson.  The appeasers were on both sides of the political spectrum.  Churchill was often one out.  Thank God for Churchill.

Iran is presently the worst of all the rogue police states.  Appeasing them is a nonsense.  

It's great that Trump has followed through on his other election promise to move the US embassy, unlike other former American presidents, who promised the same thing yet didn't have the balls to do it once in office.

The palestinians home is Jordan.  The Israelis are rightly protecting their fence line against hamas - another terrorist group.  It's typical of palestinians to use children in a conflict zone for sympathy.  How disgraceful.

All power to Israel, for protecting their property and land.  And all power to Trump for rightly recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Fun fact.  How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Qur'an ?  A big fat zero.

How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Bible ?  669 times.

Edited May 16, 20186 yr by ProDee

35 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

Not sure why your comment is directed at me - it was Earl who made the comparison and linked the two. You're effectively agreeing with me.

No I'm not agreeing with you at all. I'm agreeing with Earl by pointing out that there is a similarity with the way the Nazis behaved and the way the Israelis behave and have behaved. Both the Nazis and Israelis imprisoned innocent people into ghettos  - the Nazis did it to Jews, the Israelis did/do it to Palestinians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories. Both Nazis and Israelis behave/behave in a brutal way. I am simply pointing out to you, Grapeviney, that mentioning Treblinka doesn't cut it any more. That happened 66 years ago. What the Israelis have done and continue to do - since the ethnic cleansing of whole towns and villages in 1948 - has nothing to do with the Holocaust. 

Mentioning the way Palestinians are treated in other countries is a specious avoidance of looking at what the Israelis do and have done. Jews who support the notion of Israel - and there are very many who don't -  need to own up to that brutal, criminal behaviour. Murder of civilians by snipers and other military personnel is MURDER.

Edited May 16, 20186 yr by dieter

32 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I don't need a history lesson.  The appeasers were on both sides of the political spectrum.  Churchill was often one out.  Thank God for Churchill.

Iran is presently the worst of all the rogue police states.  Appeasing them is a nonsense.  

It's great that Trump has followed through on his election other promise and moved the US embassy, unlike other former American presidents, who promised the same thing yet didn't have the balls to do it once in office.

The palestinians home is Jordan.  The Israelis are rightly protecting their fence line against hamas - another terrorist group.  It's typical of palestinians to use children in a conflict zone for sympathy.  How disgraceful.

All power to Israel, for protecting their property and land.  And all power to Trump for rightly recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Fun fact.  How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Qur'an ?  A big fat zero.

How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Bible ?  669 times.

THis is one of the sickest posts I've read in my life. So, according to you, snipers who murder kids and women are simply defending their fence line and Hamas is the problem. Wow, that's a novel way of avoiding the facts of the matter. Ok, we shot them but it's all Hamas' fault. Wow!!!!!

We won't go into any evidence that you have to show and prove your point that 'Iran is presently the worst of all the rogue police states'.Perhaps you're relying in the assertions of the likes of George Bush. Now there was a great , peace loving, god fearing leader...

Edited May 16, 20186 yr by dieter

1 hour ago, Grapeviney said:

Let's be honest. No-one really gives a rat's about the Palestinians - they're only ever mentioned in relation to Israel, including by posters on this board. 

No mention of the 450,000 Palestinians in Syria, 95 per cent of whom are in dire need of humanitarian assistance in order to survive, and 280,000 of whom are internally displaced. Even the UNRWA - their specialist UN-appointed agency - doesn't mention the estimated 13,000 Palestinians who are political prisoners in Syria, of which an estimated 700 have been murdered. Palestinians in Syria are actually prohibited from leaving that country - they're trapped in what must surely be the greatest hell on earth at the moment.

But hey, there's no need to talk about that, when we can compare Israel to apartheid South Africa or, better still, to Nazi Germany. 

As for your question @Earl Hood, it's clear you know very little about World War II, and I seem to recall we've argued before about your penchant for describing anyone/thing you don't agree with as a Nazi / fascist.

So here's a bit about the ghetto of Piotrokow, where my father's parents were, and which was the first ghetto to be established in Europe.

In total, between 16,500-28,000 Jews went through Piotrokow on their way to the Treblinka and Majdanek death camps. As Wikipedia notes:

"The Ghetto liquidation action began on the night of October 13, 1942, commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Willy Blum. About 1,000 Jews unable to move were shot in their homes for "insubordination". By the next morning, some 22,000 Jews were herded onto the square by the Synagogue in order to undergo a "selection". In the course of the next few days, Jews were marched in columns to the railway station and loaded onto the awaiting freight trains without food or water, 150 to one car....Many non-Jewish Poles were murdered by the Gestapo for helping Jews....Following the 1942 deportations to Majdanek and Treblinka extermination camps, some 3,500 Jewish factory workers still remained in the small Ghetto. However, mass executions became more frequent in 1943, even inside the depleted Synagogue, in the Jewish cemetery, and at a special execution site near Raków. By 1944 only 1,000 Jews were still alive." 

So let's do it this way: Rather than me point out the differences between Gaza and the Nazi ghettoes, why don't you point out all the similarities, making sure you explain how Gaza is a holding place for Palestinians on their way to Israeli-run extermination camps, and how many tens of thousands of Palestinians have already been murdered in a systematic program of genocide.  

Grape Viney

A few points of clarification

I cant remember labelling anyone a fascist on this forum or anywhere else, I think you have the wrong person.

I made the comparison with the Jewish situation in Germany in the 1930’s, not the 1940’s. Specifically I was referring to when the Nazis gained power in 1933 and their progressive stripping away of Jewish human rights becoming second class citizens where their businesses and properties were vandalised and confiscated, leading thousands to flee to other countries if they had the means and if they could find new homes. 

In my reply to ProDee I talked of Hitler up to 1938, when he was admired by many for rebuilding Germany and solving their economic problems before turning feral. 

The term ghetto has been used for minorities living in designated areas of larger European cities long before the Nazis. 

Palestinians, second class citizens, property confiscated, booted out of their homelands, trapped in Gaza and elsewhere, water, power, medical supplies all controlled by the Israeli Government. 

I will stand by my earlier comments. 

1 hour ago, dieter said:

No I'm not agreeing with you at all. I'm agreeing with Earl by pointing out that there is a similarity with the way the Nazis behaved and the way the Israelis behave and have behaved. Both the Nazis and Israelis imprisoned innocent people into ghettos  - the Nazis did it to Jews, the Israelis did/do it to Palestinians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories. Both Nazis and Israelis behave/behave in a brutal way. I am simply pointing out to you, Grapeviney, that mentioning Treblinka doesn't cut it any more. That happened 66 years ago. What the Israelis have done and continue to do - since the ethnic cleansing of who towns and villages in 1948 - has nothing to do with the Holocaust. 

You're not very good at this, are you?

Dieter: Israelis are like the Nazis.

Also Dieter: Stop comparing Israelis with the Nazis / Holocaust

@Earl HoodSorry, it wasn't the word 'fascist', but if you refer the very first post in this thread, where you misuse the word genocide, just like Dieter misuses the phrase ethnic cleansing, and my response, post #32 on page 2.

Anyway, bash away - I'm out... the direction of this discussion bears out my earlier point, that this is an exercise in demonising Israel, rather than any genuine concern for the plight of the Palestinians.  

Edited May 16, 20186 yr by Grapeviney