You've listed 19 players (10 'will/should' and 9 'may'). Might be a bit of overkill there.

Personally, I think Dunn, and particularly Macdonald, are good depth, and maintain some much needed experience (Joel especially provides leadership in the example he provides to the youth as far as competitiveness, attitude, and getting the best out of oneself goes). They are keepers, for now.

Gysberts, Martin and Strauss represent potential in areas that we are light on that have not yet exhausted a reasonable chance to develop, in my opinion. Short contracts.

Getting rid of Rivers or Sylvia is just plain stupidity. We are seriously lacking experience and class. Only get rid of these players if we replace them the same or more experience and class.

Davey and Barts should only go if injury will prevent them from returning to their best.

You've swayed me. Lets keep them all. While we're at it we should beg Brent Moloney to come back, tell Ricky & Cooky we're sorry as well as talk James McDonald & Brad Miller out of retirement. We should also open up rookie spots for PJ, Boobs Maric & Cameron Hunter (he's bound to have put that bulk on by now).

We're [censored] for a reason. We have [censored] players. I'd rather focus on building a side around the good ones than taking a hoarder's mentality of hanging on to every piece of crap that falls in to our lap in the vain hope that it'll come in handy some day. You can continue to argue the case for our B- to D grade spudleys that comprise 90% of our list but I want better players.

Rivers & Sylvia are the best of that stinking lot & I won't be up in arms if they stay on at the club but doesn't it tell you something that they're the "class & experience" of a team that has won 31 of its past 141 games? Neither have been within a bull's roar of the top 50 players in the league during that time, let alone All Australian. Neither has even won the best & fairest while we've wallowed in the depths of despair. One is a small & skinny defender with limited tricks whose place in the backline has been usurped by a 19 year old Tom McDonald. The other is so frustrating that he will be 27 come next year & people will still talk of his potential when in reality he's a poor man's Alan Didak (on & off field). I yearn for the day when we're talking about Rivers/Sylvia types being handy depth rather than Dunn/Macdonald. But right now they're certainly not indispensable & nor would it be "sheer stupidity" to get rid of them if it meant we could get something good for them/develop other players of greater potential in their positions.

I say we go for Victorian kids at interstate clubs, ex-top 20 draft picks, all with 2 years in the system ready to go.

Lets try names like Caddy, Stevens & Jacobs - nice mid field that would give us.

We would easily outline an opportunity for each and all would be near walk up starts to get a game. We have plenty salary cap room and could offer 3-4 year deals for each.

You've swayed me. Lets keep them all. While we're at it we should beg Brent Moloney to come back, tell Ricky & Cooky we're sorry as well as talk James McDonald & Brad Miller out of retirement. We should also open up rookie spots for PJ, Boobs Maric & Cameron Hunter (he's bound to have put that bulk on by now).

We're [censored] for a reason. We have [censored] players. I'd rather focus on building a side around the good ones than taking a hoarder's mentality of hanging on to every piece of crap that falls in to our lap in the vain hope that it'll come in handy some day. You can continue to argue the case for our B- to D grade spudleys that comprise 90% of our list but I want better players.

Rivers & Sylvia are the best of that stinking lot & I won't be up in arms if they stay on at the club but doesn't it tell you something that they're the "class & experience" of a team that has won 31 of its past 141 games? Neither have been within a bull's roar of the top 50 players in the league during that time, let alone All Australian. Neither has even won the best & fairest while we've wallowed in the depths of despair. One is a small & skinny defender with limited tricks whose place in the backline has been usurped by a 19 year old Tom McDonald. The other is so frustrating that he will be 27 come next year & people will still talk of his potential when in reality he's a poor man's Alan Didak (on & off field). I yearn for the day when we're talking about Rivers/Sylvia types being handy depth rather than Dunn/Macdonald. But right now they're certainly not indispensable & nor would it be "sheer stupidity" to get rid of them if it meant we could get something good for them/develop other players of greater potential in their positions.

Well done, Jimmi. You've, at best, misrepresented what I posted, and, at worst, ignored it completely. Then you've used your response to launch a sarcastic tantrum as part of some argument we are not even having. Railing against my pushing of a "case for our B- to D grade spudleys that comprise 90% of our list" when I simply stated that turning over up to 19 players in one off-season might be "a bit of overkill" and suggested seven of them that we should keep for balance.

Some seriously fine shadow boxing there.

Do you feel better now?

Well done, Jimmi. You've, at best, misrepresented what I posted, and, at worst, ignored it completely.

Sorry. I thought my post was pretty direct in lambasting your description of Rivers & Sylvia being our "class & experience" & your opinion of it being "sheer stupidity" to even think of getting rid of them?

I was pretty ignorant of your defences of Joel Mac, Dunn, Martin, Strauss & Gysberts - but then again I don't like arguing about C grade down players.

I assumed the bit about Davey & Bartram was some kind of sick joke.

Then you've used your response to launch a sarcastic tantrum as part of some argument we are not even having. Railing against my pushing of a "case for our B- to D grade spudleys that comprise 90% of our list"...

Don't give up your day job. If you think what I posted above is some sort of 'sarcastic tantrum' I wouldn't be taking up pop psychology as a career. Harden up.

FWIW - sarcastic tantrum = I didn't. Push a case for our mediocre players' retention on the list = you did.

I simply stated that turning over up to 19 players in one off-season might be "a bit of overkill" and suggested seven of them that we should keep for balance.

Awesome. Speaking of arguments we're not even having... Would you care to point out where I stated we should arse up to 19 players in one off season? I said by final list lodgment 2013 (15 months from now ergo 2 off seasons) for my proposed cull.

If that didn't help you enough the final paragraph of my OP said "in the next TWO off seasons I foresee a potential turning over of half the list..."

You did mention in your op that you saw getting rid of 19 players as too much but not over one off season. So combining your lack of comprehension skills with the fact that this is Demonland the home of the C grade player fanboi - Can you understand why my reponse to your advocacy for the retention of C graders into season 2014 might've been less than enthusiastic.

You might want to express yourself more clearly in the future.

Some seriously fine shadow boxing there.

Do you feel better now?

So it seems you were the one jumping at shadows. I'd ask you the same question but suspect I'd already know the answer.

Out of interest - are you a fan of cheesecake? Or did you deem it as an appropriate euphemism for your intellect?

We can only pick up what we can trade.

Contracts have been put on hold (Oct 16) for a purpose.

Once the trade period is over, they will sit down re evaluate the list including potential draft inclusions.

Only then will they decide who to de-list.

We are going to have a list turnover - get used to it.

And some won't be our desire either - Rivers may go while we want him to stay.

What we need : mids, small fwd and tall fwds (we have plenty of tall and mid size backman. Assume around 10 spots to be filled for MFC.

Trade and free agent period: I think we have to look at who would want to come to MFC.

a). $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ searchers or multi-year contracts

B) Players on the fringe. Also good if there is a come home factor.

Players like winning and being part of a successful group. If you offer $400k, they will usually stay at their own club for $340-350k.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ searchers or multi-year contracts

1- Saints - Brendan Goddard (27yo) – offer at least 5 years contract as a min.at $1 million at year. This IS value. A star, a leader and a player who takes no backward steps. Unlikely but give it a rip.

2- Suns: Maverick Weller (19yo): rate him very highly. Great ability to get the footy. 3-year, $300k a year contract. He is as good if not better than Scully.

3- Power : Ben Jacobs (20yo.) – great left foot disposal. Had 2 years development. Surely a 3yr deal again at $300K ish would attract.

on the fringe: (mids)

West Coast: Koby Stevens (21)– tough, great tackler, behind 4-5 in strong Eagles midfield. In 3 years, only 11 games including 4 in 2012. A MUST GET IN MY OPINION.

Adelaide: Jarryd Lyons (20)- clean hands, excelling with his in-close work at the stoppages. Behind 6-7 in Crows elite midfield. Two years development and ready to go. A good in/out type mid.

Swans: Brett Meredith (23) – highly skilled. Injury riddles. In system now for 5 yrs for 16 games. Swans would entertain a trade for a pick at the 50 ish range to get him home to Melbourne

Swans: Jed Lamb (20): super talented. Behind 5-6 in strong Swans midfield. Can play fwd and has elite skills to deliver the footy

on the fringe: (small fwd)

Cats : Shannon Byrnes (28). Only a handful of games in the last 2 years. He is a skilled small fwd with great goal sense. Not in Chris Scott's plan (IMO) so as a Free agent is definitely looking elsewhere. 2 year deal, plus able to fit into our team and bring finals/premiership/leadership ability.

Adelaide: Matthew Jaensch (23)– I have seen him play and he is too good for SANFL but not given chances for Crows. Behind Petrenko, Riley and Callinan (unsure why as Jaensch is a better player)

Brisbane: Callum Bartlett (21)– 3 yrs at Brisbane and ready for a crack. Would walk to us if we said we want you. Tough, skilled.

Swans: Jared Moore (26) – a pocket rocket. Behind McGlynn and Jetta as small fwd for Swans. Would get as a free agent, delistee or PSD.

on the fringe: (tall fwd)

Adelaide: Shaun Mckernan (22)– 23 games in 4 years (6 in 2012). Very agile tall marking fwd. Behind Tippett & Walker.

Brisbane: Aaron Cornelius (22)– given rare chances at Brisbane. 4 years and 22 games (8 in 2012) I rate highly. Tassie boy.

West Coast: Quinten Lynch (29) – he would add some grunt and muscle. At 29, may not see us through but a good 3 years ahead and would compliment Clark in the fwd line.

Trade / Free agent Objective: get 3 players (one mid, one small fwd, one tall fwd) in trade and free agent window.

1. Weller or Stevens 2. Byrnes or Jaensch 3. Cornelius or Lynch.

Mini draft objective:

Get "Jesse Hogan" (will be a premier key forward by the age of 21) - swap for pick 3. Safeguard Viney as a 2nd round, pick 25.

National Draft

5 list spots available for this draft

#4: Wines or Mayes,#13: Kennedy or O'Rourke or Gartlett, #25: Viney (thats 3 further mids), #45: watch for one that slips down the order and #65 ish:Daniel Nicholson upgrade.

Pre season draft.: likely one pick here. We would have pick 3 in this draft. So have a good look at the delisted ones. There is always a fringe player who is more than able to turn it around. Tailor again to our needs.

We should have added 5 mids, 2 tall fwds, 2 small fwds and a skilled half back type.

Rookie draft

Target best from VFL/WAFL/SANFL (Mitch Woofindden and Leigh Osborne clearly are my 2 best from the VFL)

Quigley finally has his mock draft up on BigFooty. Always an interesting read. Doesn't seem to rate Wines like the messiah some posters seem to think he is.

It's a long read but a goody with some interesting picks for us,

Enjoy.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/quigleys-2012-mock.980920/