On 14/07/2012 at 01:36, José Mourinho said:

What is he not great at?

- doesn't have a great burst of speed

- not particularly agile

- does not have great reading of the play, vision or decision-making -- see ball, get ball, give to first option or slam on boot

- doesn't find a lot of the football in general play outside of stoppages

- not versatile -- like Brock McLean, it looks as if he's good for a midfield position or not at all

- in spite of his bulk and strength, not a great tackler (due to lack of agility)

- defensive skills need a lot of work -- has had license in the past to mostly run hard one way

In general play, you wouldn't say you are a man down, but his influence in the part of the game has never been great and we have no reason to think this will change.

In relation to this critique of Moloney one could make an argument that most of our players are somewhat similar . And some don't go as hard at the ball as Brent .

So .....if people are happy to delist Moloney then we might have to delist about 30 . Just for consistency's sake .

  On 14/07/2012 at 01:53, Macca said:

In relation to this critique of Moloney one could make an argument that most of our players are somewhat similar . And many of them don't go as hard at the ball as Brent .

So .....if people are happy to delist Moloney then we might have to delist about 30 . Just for consistency's sake .

I agree Macca.......It's so easy to pick out players good points and their faults.....If Jose did the same assessment of any other of our players.....The results would be very similar......Therefore 25 of our players would be put on the market to see what we could get for them.......As I have said before It sickens me the bagging that our players get from so called supporters.....BTW I liked your old avitar better.....

  On 14/07/2012 at 02:04, Bossdog said:

I agree Macca.......It's so easy to pick out players good points and their faults.....If Jose did the same assessment of any other of our players.....The results would be very similar......Therefore 25 of our players would be put on the market to see what we could get for them.......As I have said before It sickens me the bagging that our players get from so called supporters.....BTW I liked your old avitar better.....

Yeah , I was thinking of changing it back 'Bossdog' so you've prompted me into action . I had the photo of Jim up as a mark of respect and liked that it expressed him in a different way . I've put Kramer back for now . Cheers

  On 14/07/2012 at 02:14, Macca said:

Yeah , I was thinking of changing it back 'Bossdog' so you've prompted me into action . I had the photo of Jim up as a mark of respect and liked that it expressed him in a different way . I've put Kramer back for now . Cheers

Ah....thats better....Welcome back...

  On 14/07/2012 at 02:16, Bossdog said:

Ah....thats better....Welcome back...

Ha ha !

Moloney won't make the side this time next year.

With Magner, & now Couch coming on to further develop his game, & JONES, Trenners, Sylvia, rotate Nicholson, & Jetta, I think Moloney's skills are left wanting.

Offer him 1Yr contract on a reduced rate.

  On 14/07/2012 at 00:44, José Mourinho said:

How many does Robbie Flower have stuie?

What's the relevance? He's also past it and we'd e stupid to stick him in the side.

Moloney is no different.

Come on Jose, you usually at least think a bit more before commenting...

The comparison was made between Moloney and Morton, are you saying Morton is as good as Robbie Flower now because neither won a brownlow?

  On 14/07/2012 at 01:36, José Mourinho said:

It's funny those who deride "supporters" for not showing unconditional support for a player severely lacking form, likely to never regain it. You could say that such unconditional support has led to us being a cellar-dweller for the last half decade.

Anyway.

It is patently clear there are 2 camps.

Those who think Moloney is suffering from poor form and is capable of turning it around.

AND

Those who think Moloney has limitations that will prevent him from ever again being an influential player.

To get to the bottom of it, you really need to analyse what Brent has been good at in the past that made him dominant at times.

And also what has happened to make him so ineffective this year so far.

So what was Brent good at and how?

- winning clearances from ruck taps, making good position with Jamar tapping the ball straight onto his chest most times

- barrelling through tackles in congestion with brute strength and pushing the ball forward

- getting the ball to his boot OR getting his hands free of a tackler and handballing to a nearby teammate

- general long kicking, can kick a long goal on the odd occasion

- is there anything else? Please feel free to add to this list

- seems to have a decent engine without being elite

- skills are passable without being anything special

What is he not great at?

- doesn't have a great burst of speed

- not particularly agile

- does not have great reading of the play, vision or decision-making -- see ball, get ball, give to first option or slam on boot

- doesn't find a lot of the football in general play outside of stoppages

- not versatile -- like Brock McLean, it looks as if he's good for a midfield position or not at all

- in spite of his bulk and strength, not a great tackler (due to lack of agility)

- defensive skills need a lot of work -- has had license in the past to mostly run hard one way

As BH has noted, the speed at which play is restarted has given Moloney less time to make position at stoppages, limiting his influence? How does he fix this? Become quicker? How?

The increased congestion this year means if he does find the footy, Moloney has to try to barge through more opponents and it has proved very difficult for him to get a clean possession even when he is first to the football.

In general play, you wouldn't say you are a man down, but his influence in the part of the game has never been great and we have no reason to think this will change.

As a result, I think the potential for Moloney to change his game is low, and for him to develop it to the stage of being really influential again is even lower.

At his age, with less focus on him in a better side, he may be able to be a valuable contributor, but I think the likelihood is low.

But I honestly and dispassionately think the best result for us is to get any return for him that we can.

I want what's best for the club, ignoring sentiment for a player who has had imo one good season.

Barracking for the club as a kid is meaningless to me, if they stand in the way of the club's success.

I'm open to constructive feedback & to discuss this like adults, if anyone is up for it.

While I appreciate the thought put into this post, it disgusts me that you would go to so much effort to bag out a player you clearly hate for some reason and have made it known in as many threads as possible.

  On 14/07/2012 at 03:37, stuie said:

Come on Jose, you usually at least think a bit more before commenting...

The comparison was made between Moloney and Morton, are you saying Morton is as good as Robbie Flower now because neither won a brownlow?

He's saying that Brownlow counts don't matter. I don't think Jose "hates" Moloney - or any player for that matter. It doesn't do your credibility any good to respond to a reasoned argument with such a blanket statement like that. I can't understand you you can be "disgusted" at people's "hatred," yet you aren't willing to debate them on reasonable grounds.

Certainly, there's no need to debate people who say "Moloney's a hack and needs to GTFO," but there is a need to give some sort of a complete response to anyone who puts time and thought into their criticism. If you don't respond to reason with reason, then everyone's opinion becomes worthless and open inquiry and debate become impossible. Even if a person's argument is (in your opinion) totally idiotic, if they've attempted to back their opinion up with facts, then you owe it to yourself as a thinking human being to give them some kind of reasonable response. Failing that, you should not respond at all.

  On 14/07/2012 at 01:36, José Mourinho said:

It's funny those who deride "supporters" for not showing unconditional support for a player severely lacking form, likely to never regain it. You could say that such unconditional support has led to us being a cellar-dweller for the last half decade.

Anyway.

It is patently clear there are 2 camps.

Those who think Moloney is suffering from poor form and is capable of turning it around.

AND

Those who think Moloney has limitations that will prevent him from ever again being an influential player.

To get to the bottom of it, you really need to analyse what Brent has been good at in the past that made him dominant at times.

And also what has happened to make him so ineffective this year so far.

So what was Brent good at and how?

- winning clearances from ruck taps, making good position with Jamar tapping the ball straight onto his chest most times

- barrelling through tackles in congestion with brute strength and pushing the ball forward

- getting the ball to his boot OR getting his hands free of a tackler and handballing to a nearby teammate

- general long kicking, can kick a long goal on the odd occasion

- is there anything else? Please feel free to add to this list

- seems to have a decent engine without being elite

- skills are passable without being anything special

What is he not great at?

- doesn't have a great burst of speed

- not particularly agile

- does not have great reading of the play, vision or decision-making -- see ball, get ball, give to first option or slam on boot

- doesn't find a lot of the football in general play outside of stoppages

- not versatile -- like Brock McLean, it looks as if he's good for a midfield position or not at all

- in spite of his bulk and strength, not a great tackler (due to lack of agility)

- defensive skills need a lot of work -- has had license in the past to mostly run hard one way

As BH has noted, the speed at which play is restarted has given Moloney less time to make position at stoppages, limiting his influence? How does he fix this? Become quicker? How?

The increased congestion this year means if he does find the footy, Moloney has to try to barge through more opponents and it has proved very difficult for him to get a clean possession even when he is first to the football.

In general play, you wouldn't say you are a man down, but his influence in the part of the game has never been great and we have no reason to think this will change.

As a result, I think the potential for Moloney to change his game is low, and for him to develop it to the stage of being really influential again is even lower.

At his age, with less focus on him in a better side, he may be able to be a valuable contributor, but I think the likelihood is low.

But I honestly and dispassionately think the best result for us is to get any return for him that we can.

I want what's best for the club, ignoring sentiment for a player who has had imo one good season.

Barracking for the club as a kid is meaningless to me, if they stand in the way of the club's success.

I'm open to constructive feedback & to discuss this like adults, if anyone is up for it.

What about those of us who think he has limitations but can still perform a valuable role if played in the right position against the right opposition.

He did get B&F despite many on dlnd saying he was flat track bully or similar

I would hope that the coaching staff recognise his strenghts and use them while woeking on his weaknesses.

I think someone else said that he may well have been asked to get the ball and bullock out with little emphasis on a structure Did have good relationship with Jamar but as said those tactics and times have been worked outby opposition

Perhaps Brett could be the ball getter and feed it out to Morton and we could get a greater output from the two differing players?

I am not ready to ditch him but I also dont want to carry him and deny a better player a place.

  On 14/07/2012 at 03:50, Chook said:

He's saying that Brownlow counts don't matter. I don't think Jose "hates" Moloney - or any player for that matter. It doesn't do your credibility any good to respond to a reasoned argument with such a blanket statement like that. I can't understand you you can be "disgusted" at people's "hatred," yet you aren't willing to debate them on reasonable grounds.

Certainly, there's no need to debate people who say "Moloney's a hack and needs to GTFO," but there is a need to give some sort of a complete response to anyone who puts time and thought into their criticism. If you don't respond to reason with reason, then everyone's opinion becomes worthless and open inquiry and debate become impossible. Even if a person's argument is (in your opinion) totally idiotic, if they've attempted to back their opinion up with facts, then you owe it to yourself as a thinking human being to give them some kind of reasonable response. Failing that, you should not respond at all.

I hear ya, and I'm at a frustrated point, and once Morton gets compared to Flower then I think it's time to realize the level you're arguing against...

I never compared Morton to Flower.

I compared Moloney to Flower to demonstrate that no single player is going to be "up to it" in perpetuity.

For these purposes I could've used Neitz, or RDB or Bluey Truscott or Darren Kowal.

It doesn't matter.

  On 14/07/2012 at 01:53, Macca said:

In relation to this critique of Moloney one could make an argument that most of our players are somewhat similar . And some don't go as hard at the ball as Brent .

So .....if people are happy to delist Moloney then we might have to delist about 30 . Just for consistency's sake .

I don't agree with that at all.

Go on, name them. I bet you can't name 5.

And there are more cons that I didn't feel needed to be included on the list, but we can go through them if you like.

  On 14/07/2012 at 03:50, dpositive said:

What about those of us who think he has limitations but can still perform a valuable role if played in the right position against the right opposition.

He did get B&F despite many on dlnd saying he was flat track bully or similar

I would hope that the coaching staff recognise his strenghts and use them while woeking on his weaknesses.

I think someone else said that he may well have been asked to get the ball and bullock out with little emphasis on a structure Did have good relationship with Jamar but as said those tactics and times have been worked outby opposition

Perhaps Brett could be the ball getter and feed it out to Morton and we could get a greater output from the two differing players?

I am not ready to ditch him but I also dont want to carry him and deny a better player a place.

That's a terribly specific role, without actually saying what it is.

The right role against the right opposition?

I don't think we'll go far with a list of players who we can only rely on for very specific jobs against only certain clubs.

Surely to be worth keeping they should be versatile and allow us to dictate terms?

Do you care to divulge what these roles are?

Or do you not know? Because I can't see too many.

What is this mysterious valuable role?

I'm sorry but that's a very vague and hopeful analysis that leaves me with many more questions than answers.

What happened Jose? Do you need to talk to someone? Does Beamer go to your gym and make you feel shy?

You really have it in for the guy and your defensive attitude and pure know it all nature are really getting old.

Maybe you should post to a blog instead of a forum?

  On 14/07/2012 at 04:43, José Mourinho said:

I don't agree with that at all.

Go on, name them. I bet you can't name 5.

And there are more cons that I didn't feel needed to be included on the list, but we can go through them if you like.

If you looked at actual performances this season you'd be lucky to be able to come up with 10 players who've had 'Good' years . The rest have struggled for one reason or another (30 odd) .

I'm not going to list them all because there's no need . It's a team game . Naming names and blaming this player or that player achieves nothing .

One thing is for sure , those who want to scapegoat or point the finger at one player or another in a disparaging way , wouldn't last 5 minutes at a club . You'd be shown the door very quickly .

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:26, Macca said:

One thing is for sure , those who want to scapegoat or point the finger at one player or another in a disparaging way , wouldn't last 5 minutes at a club . You'd be shown the door very quickly .

Like Paul Chapman was? Honest criticism should be welcomed in any workplace.

  On 14/07/2012 at 04:58, stuie said:

What happened Jose? Do you need to talk to someone? Does Beamer go to your gym and make you feel shy?

You really have it in for the guy and your defensive attitude and pure know it all nature are really getting old.

Maybe you should post to a blog instead of a forum?

Don't be a tool.

You're not making any sort of informed argument, you're just attacking.

And I reckon it's cos you've got nothing beyond "he won a B&F and got brownlow votes last year."

I know Beamer and consider him an acquaintance.

He's a likeable bloke and I have no personal issues with him.

And I'm about the same size as him - I just wish it was all muscle.

But when I see a player who I think is clogging the list of my club, I want him moved on.

I also see Moloney's perceived value outside the club being higher than his actual value, and with the advent of free agency it is time to cash in.

At his age he's not going to get any better.

Usually old players get by and compensate for their diminishing pace and athleticism by being wily and using experience.

He does not show any signs of doing it, and sadly, if I'm honest, I don't think he's smart enough.

I'm trying to be kind, but he's just a very simple bloke.

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:48, Chook said:

Like Paul Chapman was? Honest criticism should be welcomed in any workplace.

Got no idea what your talking about re Chapman and frankly , I'm not interested . Talk about Melbourne , Chook .

I like to put these 'Internet' comments into the real world .

Can you imagine what our Clubs attitude would be towards an employee or anybody involved with the club if that person was throwing insulting , derogatory or demeaning comments towards a player ?

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:23, Macca said:

If you looked at actual performances this season you'd be lucky to be able to come up with 10 players who've had 'Good' years . The rest have struggled for one reason or another (30 odd) .

I'm not going to list them all because there's no need . It's a team game . Naming names and blaming this player or that player achieves nothing .

Clumsy sidestep there macca.

True to form.

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:56, José Mourinho said:

Clumsy sidestep there macca.

True to form.

I've stayed true to course . Never wavered . I don't bag out players individually .

There's a major difference between critiquing a list on an overall basis as opposed to being unnecessarily unfair in criticizing a particular player .

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:26, Macca said:

One thing is for sure , those who want to scapegoat or point the finger at one player or another in a disparaging way , wouldn't last 5 minutes at a club . You'd be shown the door very quickly .

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Switching the issue cos you're fighting for a losing argument?

This isnt about scapegoating anyone - it's an analysis of an individual player, where he's at and where he is going.

Nothing more.

If you want to analyse a different player, or the list as a whole, start a new thread.

Moloney is not being blamed for the team's poor record.

But he is being blamed for his own poor form.

It's not nasty - it is brutally honest.

Would you prefer we make excuses for him and tiptoe around issues?

Obviously you would.

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:56, Macca said:

Can you imagine what our Clubs attitude would be towards an employee or anybody involved with the club if that person was throwing insulting , derogatory or demeaning comments towards a player ?

Once again, where are these comments?

You've been invited to make intelligent discussion of where Moloney fits and can be influential going forward, but instead you're settling for weak unsubstantiated snipes.

  On 14/07/2012 at 05:56, Macca said:

Got no idea what your talking about re Chapman and frankly , I'm not interested . Talk about Melbourne , Chook .

I like to put these 'Internet' comments into the real world .

Can you imagine what our Clubs attitude would be towards an employee or anybody involved with the club if that person was throwing insulting , derogatory or demeaning comments towards a player ?

The clubs attitude,,, or the current people in charge, at the club, at the Moment?

  On 14/07/2012 at 06:05, Macca said:

I've stayed true to course . Never wavered . I don't bag out players individually .

There's a major difference between critiquing a list on an overall basis as opposed to being unnecessarily unfair in criticizing a particular player .

It's not bagging out - it's critical analysis.

And what makes you foolishly believe that it's somehow more honourable to not engage in it?

Those at the club certainly do, on a regular basis.