G'day DUFCA Coaches,

A topic has been brought up over on the Norm Smith UF message board that I think merits discussion among coaches of both leagues. Specifically, the ideas of relegation and promotion and the '4 Keepers' concept.

Although each league has it's own individual thread on Demonland, I thought it would be a good idea to start up this combined leagues thread so we can discuss these ideas as a group, a Demonland Ultimate Footy Coaches Association (DUFCA) if you will. Who knows ... in a few years we may even see the introduction of more leagues. It seems to be a format growing in popularity.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of relegation and promotion (say 4 sides up and 4 sides down) as it keeps things interesting and 'live' at both ends of the ladder in both leagues for the entire year. With the way the finals and 'consolation finals' system works on UF, there would be virtually no 'dead rubbers' for any side at any stage of the season. A loss at any level and in any game right up until the final day would implications right across both leagues.

Also, it removes any incentive to tank or lose interest and trade away good players for less than their value.

I also feel, as the league with the founding group of players, the Norm Smith league holds that extra 'prestige' that coaches will want to strive for. Don't get me wrong, Robbie F. is good, but to say you're a 'Norm Smith League' coach ... that carries a bit of status in my book!

I know we're 5 matches into the season but I don't think it's too late for us to come to an agreement on this. Maybe you think it's a good idea, maybe not. Maybe you have an alternative. But let's have a discussion and see if we can come to a conclusion over the next 10 days, let's say by Friday next week we could even put it to a vote?

The idea of '4 Keepers', while having merit, wouldn't work if we are to adopt the relegation/promotion system. The draft would need to be conducted with a clean slate to all players based on reverse ladder position. I personally am more happier with this anyway as a) I'm not so sentimental about particular players and b ) I don't see how the best/premier coaches getting to keep their best players works to even up the competition.

Just my thoughts lads. Looking forward to hearing yours in this combined UF N.Smith/R.Flower thread.

Cheers, RR

*Adding ... Also feel free to discuss any other matters/suggestions you think have relevance across both competitions.

I like the idea. So the 4 Prelim teams go to the NS League?

I like the idea. So the 4 Prelim teams go to the NS League?

Correct ... and the bottom four in NS (after consolation finals are completed) go down.

Then, if another league (ie. Barrassi League) is ever introduced to the DUFCA, it goes under R.Flower in the pecking order and so on.

My two cents again.

I don't mind either concept, & I am feeling your passion here Wooders.

We definately need to decide how we are going forward.

However as stated in previous threads we our 6 rounds into this season & several trade deals/rejections

have already gone down.

Several coaches have chose to hold injured players (myself included with Big Mummy) that they would have traded to better there outcomes this season to date, if the Keepers Strategy was not in place.

If we are to abandon the Keepers concept by majority than the P/R model should be introduced inbetween 2013 - 2014 season.

This would also ensure we have 100% commitment from both Leauges over a tested time - frame.

My vote is to retain the Keepers strategy that we have commenced.

However if we head down the other path, I would be cool with that also.

im gonna bank roll a whole new league and buy out the best coaches and form my own rebel league, sell advertising and make a fortune.

i'd prefer this over the keeper league, but i've already traded in a young player thinking of the keeper league next year thinking thats what was happening, i think we need to sort this out before anyone else does the same thing.

I am in favour. Anyone that follows soccer, or even the Ammos, can't help but be entranced with the relegation / promotion concept.

Anyone that is good enough to be promoted from RF league would definitely shake up things in NS league, while at the same time, those relegated from NS league, would help strengthen the RF league, after what i believe has been a solid first year so far. We are relatively new, but if you look through our thread, you'll see there are some solid rivalries forming.

I think it would also give incentive to other demonland posters to sign up, and try and work their way to the top.

So what would this take for it to go ahead. A majority vote in each league?

I also feel, as the league with the founding group of players, the Norm Smith league holds that extra 'prestige' that coaches will want to strive for. Don't get me wrong, Robbie F. is good, but to say you're a 'Norm Smith League' coach ... that carries a bit of status in my book!

Its attitudes like this, that will see you slip to the Barassi league by 2015!

if promotion is the way we're going, from next season settings and scoring has to be the same across both leagues. it will be unfair to the coach's coming into the new league playing a different game. i know a few of us didnt get the rule changes completely for the first few games, imagine if 14 people know what's going on from round 1 and the other 4 get smacked in the face.

Who's to say the norm smith league is the better league.

I don't support a relegation system, and not just because i'm in line for relegation. But if we reach a consensus I'll concede.

RR - you are fascinated with relegation...

We should think of them like the NL and the AL in the MLB (baseball).

Equal.

And they play off for the world series!

Or you can do a champions league where the best teams from the previous season play off concurrently to the NSL and the RFL.

Now there's a winner!

rpfc i just had the same idea, run both ns and rf league, but the top teams from each league have a champions league, could be onto something there, would be no keeper players in the champions league though, there's no way that all the teams wouldnt have some of the same players.

The Demonland Champions League. Credit to you Rpfc, nice idea. Although I'm a fan of relegation/promotion (puts everyone/match on a knife edge until the final minutes of the last game of the year), this concept may work better. It's an instant set-up whereas an ammos style A-D grade or whatever would take a few seasons to take shape (and considerable effort to administrate) as we work out who the better players are.

A DCL works on several levels.

1. It keeps the 'originals' in each league together where rivalries have already formed (not to mention a few brotherly bonds!).

2. It works for 3 leagues just as well as it does for the current 2. As it stands, the top 9 from each league (NS and RF) would earn DCL spots at the end of the year. If a third 'Barassi' league were set up for next season, that number would become the top 6 in order to form the DCL 18-team competition.

* A system of draft order would need to be worked out for the DCL and obviously the 'keepers concept' would not be applicable.

If this is the way we go, I agree with Scarlett above in that we'll need to establish a uniform point-scoring system for all competitions (under the banner of the DUFCA).

On that subject, I'm not convinced (at least in NS) that we've got it right this season. My feeling is total points scored should be set at 4 points and free kick differential at 1. Players from all over the field contribute to the score and it seems to me victory on the scoreboard should receive much greater recognition than the free-kick count (who cares really) and perhaps even another level of recognition above the standard stats. Also not sure at all about hit-outs. Should a couple of ruckmen really carry that much influence on the outcome? Seems grossly disproportionate to their input for mine. Hitouts should be a rung lower than kicks/handballs/marks etc (which every player contributes to).

I'd go for ...

Kicks - 3

Handballs - 3

Marks - 3

Hit-outs - 2

Tackles - 3

Free Differential - 1

Points Scored - 4

Kicking accuracy - 1

Total - 17 points

So ... what do others think of that and the Demonland Champions League ™ ?

RR - Getting a little deep for me @ this time of night.

I'll think about the DLC concept & post some thoughts tommorow

Your comments on the scoring system seem pretty spot on to me, well worked through.

I agree it is frustrating smashing out 17 plus goals most weeks & being rolled on Free difference / Hit Outs.

PS : RR I just threw a random trade offer your way

RR - Getting a little deep for me @ this time of night.

I'll think about the DLC concept & post some thoughts tommorow

Your comments on the scoring system seem pretty spot on to me, well worked through.

I agree it is frustrating smashing out 17 plus goals most weeks & being rolled on Free difference / Hit Outs.

PS : RR I just threw a random trade offer your way

I wish I could put my creative energies to something more constructive but that's the life of a footy tragic for you OMR. You know what I'm talking about.

Trade accepted. The two Daveys together at last!

Kicks - 3

Handballs - 3

Marks - 3

Hit-outs - 2

Tackles - 3

Free Differential - 1

Points Scored - 4

Kicking accuracy - 1

Total - 17 points

I'm guessing you have won the points scored total a few times haha.

Although free differential is annoying, I like the current spread, it leads to list depth as without a ruck man you are don two points, leads to more tactical choosing, players like Kosi for me who I just picked up become important as extra disposals rather than hit outs!

For mine in the modern game tackles have become so important should be worth 4, I have won the tackle count most weeks! Only stirring but I think if you look to deep into it, makes tactical choices tougher, for example different teams aim at different categories! I know week in week out I will lose the hit outs, poor recruiting on my part, but I will try get the win through the other categories, also your 17 point system can have draws

Love your passion RR, but I'm pretty much on the same page as JA.

I actually really, really like the keeper league concept (not just cos I recently landed Kreuzer), and like the idea of upping the players year by year to 6 or 8. As it stands, 18 teams X 4 players, that pretty much means the top 72 ranked players in the league all get locked away. I reckon it would be fun to have more. And by that stage, keepers will be more likely to be traded.

If it goes to a vote, then sure, I'll go along with it.

But my thoughts on relegations, as long as it's just 2 teams a year. More than that and it gets messy, and the many rivalries disappear more often.

The DCL... That confuses me. So are you saying the top nine from both leagues play in a league the following season? Not a fan of that. I would have thought maybe you could have the top nine from both leagues play in a finals system during the ACTUAL finals in the AFL. I've seen dream team do something like this. Though obviously it would be a nightmare to coordinate.

One other thought, would it be impossible to suggest that a keeper league could work with relegations? The idea was floated that teams that swapped to other leagues took the keeper players that the vacating coach had. If they didn't like them, they would be welcome to decline the option on that player in return for a priority pick at the start of the draft that year. I think this would work because if you've been promoted, you're likley to get hold of injured superstars that were the reason the relegated player ended the season so badly. And if you're the relegated player you're likely to inherit a hell of a list.

Could be a little complicated. Just a thought.

Oh and on the scoring system, I'm up for a review, but I don't think changing it actually changes much. Whatever the scoring is, the onus is on you to recruit cleverly. When it was 9 categories, you still recruited with that in mind. The only reason that changed was that frees are a random thing that can go from great one week to disastrous the next. And scoring only changed because if you won scoring, you could lose it if you were playing someone like Buddy who misses a lot. I'm ok with the current system, unless someone can suggest something simple to fix it. If the weighting of the stats gets too complicated it just gets annoying. Also, I don't rate hitouts as only a 1 point category.

Despite the fact that the league initials spell NSL we aren't playing soccer

I'd generally be fine with either way - however we have been playing the "Keeper" model in the Norm Smith league after having this same discussion several months ago (before the draft!) and it was determined then it would be a keeper league. Despite the fact that I have only 2 players I'd deem a "Keeper" I think it's too late to change the rules now - for 6 weeks people have been knocking back trades based upon how they want to mold their team both this and next year. It also makes things interesting when top players are injured for 6 weeks - do you keep them or lose them and risk someone else picking them up later in the season.

So I vote no to mid season change to rules.

For the CL - I was just thinking of the top 4 from each and have a short 'Cup style' competition the next season.

And you use the players you have for your regular league - you just take out the duplicated players against that particular team.

for 6 weeks people have been knocking back trades based upon how they want to mold their team both this and next year. It also makes things interesting when top players are injured for 6 weeks - do you keep them or lose them and risk someone else picking them up later in the season.

Yup. I like keeper players, and I disagree that people tanking at year's end is detrimental. I'm in another league along with this one and have been caned in it... I've decided to trade for Kennedy and maybe Carrazzo, tank my year, but be positive for the next one... I think that's a plus for teams at the bottom?

For the CL - I was just thinking of the top 4 from each and have a short 'Cup style' competition the next season.

So in other words you have all the same lists, but you play a sort of round robin for the first few weeks of the following season? That actually sounds like fun...

The only drawback there is someone has to organise it. Poor old JA.

It'd also be funny if you came up against someone from RFL who had many of the same starters as you.

It'd also be funny if you came up against someone from RFL who had many of the same starters as you.

Yes, and you take them out and use your subs, the coach with the best squad will win...

I like the concept but I think the implementation at Round 6 of Promotion and Demotion is a touch unfair. I've had a horrid start to the year and have already twice turned down trades that would benefit me because I wanted to keep Priddis for next year. If I'm outnumbered, I'm outnumbered but I think the call needed to be made earlier. I missed the draft and am now playing catch up to keep in the league.. But whatever happen's ill follow.

I say - keep the leagues as they are and develop something to add to that if you want to.

Agree. It seems a few coaches have already based decisions on the keeper concept five rounds in, so let's just keep our leagues as is.

The advent of a DCL is something I'm all for though. But keep it simple ... make it a full separate league that the top 9 from RF and NS qualify for. As I mentioned in the NS thread, hopefully we can get the numbers for a third league at the start of 2013 (Ron Barassi League) which would mean that only the top 6 would qualify for the DCL, making it all the more prestigious to get a guernsey in it.

In answer to Dappa ... the DCL would have no impact on the RF and NS comps. It would be an additional comp reserved for the best coaches from the previous season.

The scoring system will definitely a review and need to be made uniform across all comps. Free-kicks, goal kicking accuracy and hit-outs carry too much weight, and overall score not enough weight IMO.

Agree. It seems a few coaches have already based decisions on the keeper concept five rounds in, so let's just keep our leagues as is.

The advent of a DCL is something I'm all for though. But keep it simple ... make it a full separate league that the top 9 from RF and NS qualify for. As I mentioned in the NS thread, hopefully we can get the numbers for a third league at the start of 2013 (Ron Barassi League) which would mean that only the top 6 would qualify for the DCL, making it all the more prestigious to get a guernsey in it.

I don't know...

It would mean taking care of two teams...

The DCL should be much smaller - top 4 teams from each play 3 games then semi finals then Final.

5 weeks of fun in the middle of the season. Bang done.

I don't know...

It would mean taking care of two teams...

The DCL should be much smaller - top 4 teams from each play 3 games then semi finals then Final.

5 weeks of fun in the middle of the season. Bang done.

Two teams would be fine with me. Easier to organize IMO and it'd be fun to strive to make it into the DCL each season (particularly if we can eventually get 3 leagues up and running - top 6 making it gives it a real "Champions League" vibe, but 9 teams is still good.).

Put it to a vote?