Big Blokes take time to develop - be patient

[nutbean 8,838]

I continually here posters bemoaning that we draft tall skinny footballers who take time to develop.(Cook, Fitzpatrick etc)

Why dont we draft "Darling" who was ready to go.

Too much time on my hands so I did some homework.

Below is the list of all clubs of players that are 192cm or over and 22 years old or under.

I have subjectively listed who I think is established in their team.

I have also italliced which footballers are 22 because many of the footballer I consider established are 22 and only established themselves this year.

I think what this list shows is that you have to be patient and it basically takes until 22 until the talls start to show what they are worth.

Adelaide – Johnston – 2, Lynch - 6, Shaw – 0, Talia -0, Thompson – 11, Walker – 45, Young – 2. McKernan – 17, Otten - 41 Sellar - 21- Verdict – Taylor Walker & Andy Otten ( Sellar will be good )

Brisbane - Collier – 27, Cornelius – 14, Karnezis – 11, Ryan – 3, Lisle – 5, Retzlaff – 11, - Verdict – nil

Collingwood – Brown – 50, Ceglar – 0, Keeffe – 5, Reid – 53, Young – 0 – Verdict - Brown & Reid

Western Bulldogs – Cordy – 2, Grant – 37, Hill – 0, Jones – 25, Mulligan – 3, Panos – 0, Roughhead – 17, Verdict – Grant & Jones.

Geelong - Gillies – 8, Simpson – 3, Vardy – 9, Walker – 0, Verdict – nil ( Vardy is going to be a beauty)

Melbourne – Cook – 0, Davis – 0, Fitzpatrick – 1, Gawn -4, McDonald – 2, Morton – 64, Spencer - 8 , Watts – 40, Verdict – Watts

Richmond – Astbury – 22, Browne – 12, Gourdis – 4, Griffiths – 9, Grimes – 8, Post – 22, Rance – 44, Riewoldt – 90, Vickery – 45 Verdict – Riewoldt, Vickery, Rance

West Coast - Brown – 43, Lycett – 1, NikNat – 55, Schofield – 58, - Verdict – Brown, NikNat, Scholfield

Sydney - Currie – 0, Everitt – 47, Johnson – 20, Reid – 24, -Verdict – Reid & Johnston

Carlton - Austin -0 , Casboult – 0, Henderson – 49, Kreuzer – 68., McCarthy -0, Mitchell – 0, Watson – 3, - Verdict Kruezer & Henderson

Essendon – Bellchambers – 27, Carlisle – 10, Hurley – 47, Verdict – Hurley

Fremantle – Clarke – 21, Houghton – 0, Sibisado -1, Verdict – Clarke

Hawthorn – Boumann – 0, Grimley – 0, Gunston – 14, Lowden – 0, Schoenmakers – 35. Verdict – Schoenmakers (?)

Port Adelaide– Butcher – 4, Lobbe – 13, Oshea – 0, Redden – o, Trengove – 41. Verdict - Trengove and Lobbe

StKilda – Cahill – 0, McEvoy – 53, Stanley – 9, Verdict – McEvoy

North Melbourne – Black – 0, Delaney – 0, Kennedy -0, Mabon – 0, Tarrant - 9 Verdict - nil

Edited October 18, 2011 by nutbean

[Tony Tea 2,809]

Here. Hear.

[nutbean 8,838]

Thought I would at least get a backhander from RobbieF - everyone must be in violent agreement !

[Viney Vidi Vici 148]

Adelaide has a ridiculous number of young talls though...

[nutbean 8,838]

Adelaide has a ridiculous number of young talls though...

Besides Rutten - not too many older ones.

Herein lies our problem - we have been unable to develop older talls - Garland and Frawley just hit 23 years old.

To me the interesting teams are WCE and Sydney who have established talls in their team who are reasonably young.

What I am convinced about is you should pretend that Fitzpatrick and Cook dont even exist and continue their education and development - you can count the footballers of their age and size who have arrived ( nay - even made half a statement) - on one hand. - To write off either of those footballers flies in the face of what the above list highlights

Edited October 19, 2011 by nutbean

[deanox 9,986]

So there are only 6 listed players, over the age of 22, and over 192 cm tall who have played 50 games or more, and at least one of them is a midfielder? And only 9 more between 40-50 games.

Great work. It really does show that it takes time for a tall to cement their place.

It also demonstrates how rare a genuine star KPP is (a Carey or a Brown) compared to a star midfielder. Or perhaps it highlights that we rate some midfielders higher than theyh deserve because they are involved in the play more than a KPP...

[boydie 655]

Adelaide has a ridiculous number of young talls though...

Cause they keep being poached

[nutbean 8,838]

So there are only 6 listed players, over the age of 22, and over 192 cm tall who have played 50 games or more, and at least one of them is a midfielder? And only 9 more between 40-50 games.

Great work. It really does show that it takes time for a tall to cement their place.

It also demonstrates how rare a genuine star KPP is (a Carey or a Brown) compared to a star midfielder. Or perhaps it highlights that we rate some midfielders higher than theyh deserve because they are involved in the play more than a KPP...

I think it demonstrates ( without pulling out the shorter bloke stats) that bigger blokes take longer to come on. It is rarer to find a Hurley or Darling that looked the goods from day one as opposed to the smaller blokes like Trengove, Selwood and host of others who hit the ground running from drafting.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Thought I would at least get a backhander from RobbieF - everyone must be in violent agreement !

I agree vehemently whilst burning stuff.

[nutbean 8,838]

I agree vehemently whilst burning stuff.

An effigy of "he who shall not be named ?"

[Dee Fan 3,247]

An effigy of "he who shall not be named ?"

No I think she meant me.

Was I supposed to comment on this thread?

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

No I think she meant me.

Was I supposed to comment on this thread?

lol, no I didn't mean you- I was agreeing with the contention of the thread.

And by burning stuff I meant random things like barns and childeren's hospitals.

[nutbean 8,838]

Was I supposed to comment on this thread?

Well ..I was hoping for some insight - you do seem to suggest on various posts that we draft skinny talls and have to wait for them develop.

I think that this thread pointed to the fact that most clubs draft skinny talls and have to wait until they are around 22 before getting a consistent return.

It is a not a MFC thing - it is the normal development path for 196cm 22 kg 18-21 year olds. Darlings,Taylors and Franklins are exceptions to the rule.

[nutbean 8,838]

I know my stuff !

I listed Sellar of Adelaide and although I didnt have him as "established" I did comment he will be good. Obviously so good that Adelaide have just delisted him. yikes !

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Well ..I was hoping for some insight - you do seem to suggest on various posts that we draft skinny talls and have to wait for them develop.

I think that this thread pointed to the fact that most clubs draft skinny talls and have to wait until they are around 22 before getting a consistent return.

It is a not a MFC thing - it is the normal development path for 196cm 22 kg 18-21 year olds. Darlings,Taylors and Franklins are exceptions to the rule.

OK I'll bite. What I said was that in 3 out of the last 4 drafts we have recruited tall skinny kids; Morton Watts and Cook and I questioned the fact we recruited Cook when Darling was available. Now I'm happy with Watts and Morton and both showed right from the start that they had great skill (I still believe that Morton has great skill just lacks application) but I didn't think that Cook showed the same. I also questioned the fact that our number one draft selection was running around in the Casey 2's whilst Darling was running around in a potential top 4 side getting a game each week.

I believe that we have had a third world midfield and that we should have taken best available, Darling, or the best midfielder available, Atley.

That's it, it has escalated from there and we now have a situation where Cook is being hailed as some sort of superstar, maybe a Carey and better than Watts. Pleeeaaase.

The kid is struggling and is having difficulty with the Casey 2's, judging by the fact he not once made the best players and the hysteria regarding his capability is growing without any foundation at all. I hope he turns out to be a star I would love to have to eat my words even though all I've really done is comment on his achievements to date which are zero and the fact I think we made a mistake in taking him instead of Darling.

END OF STORY.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Lol you're not over exaggerating things again are you RobbieF?

No one suggested superstar or better than a Watts or Carey. It was people who could see his potential to become a star vs people who thought he was a waste of a pick and has shown nothing to date without taking into consideration his slight body frame.

You fail to see significance in the bigger picture. We've done the Darling vs Cook hypothesis to death.

That, I think you'll find, is where the story ends.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Lol you're not over exaggerating things again are you RobbieF?

No one suggested superstar or better than a Watts or Carey. It was people who could see his potential to become a star vs people who thought he was a waste of a pick and has shown nothing to date without taking into consideration his slight body frame.

You fail to see significance in the bigger picture. We've done the Darling vs Cook hypothesis to death.

That, I think you'll find, is where the story ends.

Recognise any of these posts? You should most are yours.

Can't wait to see this kid crack the team he's going to be a ripper! Screams class!

His positioning and reading of the play, he has a beautiful kicking action and a good set of mits. His under-developed body is what's holding him back in my eyes.

He will be a ripper and people will be saying WhoTF is Darling in a couple of seasons time

Be that as it may Darling is physically ready to play now, and Cook isn't.. so it is kind of hard to judge Cook at all right now. Will have to re-visit in a few years.

FWIW I rate Darling, but Cook could be so much more. Time will tell.

And with that I feel this thread will die.

I think you have a habit of reading into things the wrong way, no one here was suggesting Darling was going to drop off, just that we believe Cook will eclipse him at some point in time.

I always lol a little bit at people who get up on a soapbox to scream condemnation when they misinterpreted the content of a thread. It must be a embarrassing

Not sure how people can say that Lucas Cook won't be as good as Watts etc. I worked at every casey game during Watts first year and he was WAY OFF! Lucas Cook is far ahead of Watts at the same age so there is no way we would dream about trading away Cook.

Cook is similar to Watts in many ways. A great mark and kick and exactly the same height. Watts is more athletic but Cook reads the game a bit better i believe.

He is currently 19. He needs to keep developing his game, just like he did this year at Casey (preferably playing Key Position without scum fevola).

We will enter our window in 2-3 years. At that stage we will have Cook, Watts and Clarke as 196cm+ KP forwards. That can only be awesome for our club

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

This was mine-

Can't wait to see this kid crack the team he's going to be a ripper! Screams class!

His positioning and reading of the play, he has a beautiful kicking action and a good set of mits. His under-developed body is what's holding him back in my eyes.

He will be a ripper and people will be saying WhoTF is Darling in a couple of seasons time

Be that as it may Darling is physically ready to play now, and Cook isn't.. so it is kind of hard to judge Cook at all right now. Will have to re-visit in a few years.

FWIW I rate Darling, but Cook could be so much more. Time will tell.

And with that I feel this thread will die.

I think you have a habit of reading into things the wrong way, no one here was suggesting Darling was going to drop off, just that we believe Cook will eclipse him at some point in time.

I always lol a little bit at people who get up on a soapbox to scream condemnation when they misinterpreted the content of a thread. It must be a embarrassing

Not sure how people can say that Lucas Cook won't be as good as Watts etc. I worked at every casey game during Watts first year and he was WAY OFF! Lucas Cook is far ahead of Watts at the same age so there is no way we would dream about trading away Cook.

this wasn't mine-

Cook is similar to Watts in many ways. A great mark and kick and exactly the same height. Watts is more athletic but Cook reads the game a bit better i believe.

He is currently 19. He needs to keep developing his game, just like he did this year at Casey (preferably playing Key Position without scum fevola).

We will enter our window in 2-3 years. At that stage we will have Cook, Watts and Clarke as 196cm+ KP forwards. That can only be awesome for our club

I have no problems with anything I said. If anything you probably just strengthened my argument.

My suppositions are based on what I have witnessed.

Your's are based out of annoyance for not producing the goods yesterday.

We have the right to be optimistic about a kid's future based on signs we have witnessed. We don't have the right to bemoan a player because he isn't AFL ready from day one.

Once again you fail to see this.

[rhaz 342]

Verdict – Taylor Walker & Andy Otten ( Sellar will be good )

Sellar just got delisted by the Crows - should we pick him up then?

[nutbean 8,838]

Ahhh - if you are comparing the impact a midfielder will have compared to a tall and saying we should have taken Atley instead of a tall - then I have no argument with you ( albeit it is matter of choice) - History shows that the runners come on quicker than the talls. Lots of mids/runners get going from day one.

If you are comparing Cook to any other of the other talls taken then I dont accept your argument. Most dont come on early as Darling has. Everyone thought Butcher was the go but he had indifferent first year that ended up getting crueled by injury - his first hslf of this year was so so and he only sparked in the last 4 games. There was plenty pumping for Talia and Black and they havent come on yet either. I dont remember Walker from Adelaide being spoken of at draft time and he has come on early.

Edited October 19, 2011 by nutbean

[nutbean 8,838]

Sellar just got delisted by the Crows - should we pick him up then?

I mentioned that in post 14 - I didnt realise that Sellar was a first round draft pick too. The obviously dont believe in patience required for talls.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

This was mine- this wasn't mine- I have no problems with anything I said. If anything you probably just strengthened my argument. My suppositions are based on what I have witnessed. Your's are based out of annoyance for not producing the goods yesterday. We have the right to be optimistic about a kid's future based on signs we have witnessed. We don't have the right to bemoan a player because he isn't AFL ready from day one. Once again you fail to see this.

Look i'm not interested in arguing about your posts but have another look; one minute you say he screams class the next you say it's too early to tell. You say we will be saying WhoTF is Darling the next you say you rate him.

The last post in the ones you claim was actually posted by Freak; saying he will be better than Watts.

End of story now.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Ahhh - if you are comparing the impact a midfielder will have compared to a tall and saying we should have taken Atley instead of a tall - then I have no argument with you ( albeit it is matter of choice) - History shows that the runners come on quicker than the talls. Lots of mids/runners get going from day one. If you are comparing Cook to any other of the other talls taken then I dont accept your argument. Most dont come on early as Darling has. Everyone thought Butcher was the go but he had indifferent first year that ended up getting crueled by injury - his first hslf of this year was so so and he only sparked in the last 4 games. There was plenty pumping for Talia and Black and they havent come on yet either. I dont remember Walker from Adelaide being spoken of at draft time and he has come on early.

I believe that your first pick in any draft should be the best player available and i simply don't think he was the best player available. I'm more than happy with MacDonald, and Howe is playing good football. Cook has a long way to go to convince me he was the best player available at selection 12 in that draft and I must confess I was shocked when his name was called out.

We will see what happens, but it's a long way from the Casey Seconds to the MCG.

[Want a Flag 46]

Like all of you I have been patient (and impatient at times) for more years than I care to mention, but I will take drafting young big blokes who take time any day over the St Kilda model of topping up with other team's rejects.

We put up with supporters of other teams bagging Watts from day one when the smarter among us knew he was skinny and raw and couldn't be properly be judged until season 3 or 4. This season we saw what he is capable of and alot of those same people who were bagging him are now changing their minds. Imagine what he could be if the midfield service was top shelf.

In relation to Cook, I took a good look at him at the family day in March this year and he is a great height but really skinny. I am not surprised he ran out of steam towards the end of the season. From the bit I saw of him on the TV this season I was content where he was at, not ecstatic, but he was about where I thought he would be.

I look forward to improvement next season, not only from him but from Tom McDonald, Max Gawn and Troy Davis and any other big raw boned kid we have invested in.

[Jaded No More 68,972]

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