There are a few valid topics relating to age & experience, the midfield, kicking out, etc. All relevant hot topics that give various indications responsible to the teams capitulation against Hawthorn on Sunday. For me, one other aspect stood out having been 19 points up into the third quarter and during the 10 unanswered goal-roll on by Hawthorn. One other aspect !

Leadership. Where was the onfield leadership ? Where was one of our players throwing his weight around at a centre bounce or at a contest. Surely at least one of the senior players or one of the so called up & coming aspiring-to-be-leaders could have tried to lead the way through actions of hard physical play, to put a stop to the rot !

Surely, Hawthorn weren't that clinical in keepings off for this not to occur at some stage in 20 minutes of play. A Viney-like pit bull action scrounging around the bottom of a pack with half his shirt hanging off in shreads as he emerged from the bottom of a pack saying "follow me boys" would have been enough...but you get my drift !

Instead not one player gave not even a whimper in that 20 minutes onslaught during the 3rd quarter when the team lost the ascendancy, not even a fight. They let the game slip away by just chasing and gave an insipid output, which was the most disappointing aspect for me.

I think this has been flogged to death, and Stynes also mentioned it in his press release this morning, so obviously the Club and the players know that it was an issue.

That was last weekend's game, so I will be watching our leaders over the next 2 weeks to see if there is any change of attitude. If not, then we have serious issues.

I don't think we do.

I think this has been flogged to death, and Stynes also mentioned it in his press release this morning, so obviously the Club and the players know that it was an issue.

That was last weekend's game, so I will be watching our leaders over the next 2 weeks to see if there is any change of attitude. If not, then we have serious issues.

I don't think we do.

To be frank. I've heard how good Hawthorn is. I've heard and read they're top 4 material, that other sides should watch out. I've read and understood we're still a young list. I've read it's the midfield stupid ! I've read about our injured outs. But I've read nothing about the lack of leadership shown on here.

Stynes may have mentioned it. Once.

I don't think it's been flogged to death. At all. In fact it hasn't been touched on here.

Jamar, Green, Sylvia, Rivers, Frawley, Moloney, Jones, Dunn need to pull their finger out and lead by example when the game is slipping.

Jones went down with a fairy tap for what seemed like 5 minutes. Is he serious ? Get up.

Sorry, maybe the threads/posts on the Jones bashing, the Moloney & Rivers criticism, the Davey-putting-the-ball-in-the-air incident, the Grimes = liability. And then the fact that even in the player review on the MFC website said that Green needed to increase his defensive pressure, plus our President's press release, and also the criticism from commentators about our senior players, I think we get the point that these particular players are part of the leadership group, which to me means we lacked leadership.

Flogged to death? Yes, in individual circumstances.

BTW - you ever played contact sport HT? If cop a good one in the guts it can take a good few minutes to get over it. It was pretty clear he wasn't 100% after that, but let's question his hardness.

Sorry, maybe the threads/posts on the Jones bashing, the Moloney & Rivers criticism, the Davey-putting-the-ball-in-the-air incident, the Grimes = liability. And then the fact that even in the player review on the MFC website said that Green needed to increase his defensive pressure, plus our President's press release, and also the criticism from commentators about our senior players, I think we get the point that these particular players are part of the leadership group, which to me means we lacked leadership.

Flogged to death? Yes, in individual circumstances.

BTW - you ever played contact sport HT? If cop a good one in the guts it can take a good few minutes to get over it. It was pretty clear he wasn't 100% after that, but let's question his hardness.

It's been less than two days since the game. Hardly flogged to death, but you're entitled to your lonesome view.

We didn't just lack leadership in the third. It was non-existent.

Yeah, I've played contact sport. And let's question it. Why not ? Everything else can be questionned. Like Jones' key indicative stats for the game (the one's that matter on key performance)......

Jones had: -

• 1 x centre clearance
  
• 2 x contested possessions.
  

*In comparison Sylvia & Moloney both had 5 and 6 Clearances respectively and 12 and 11 contested possessions.

If he puts in performances like that again with a couple of his teammates, I wouldn't be expecting walk over results in the next two games. Far from it.

*BUMP*

I think this has been flogged to death, and Stynes also mentioned it in his press release this morning, so obviously the Club and the players know that it was an issue.

That was last weekend's game, so I will be watching our leaders over the next 2 weeks to see if there is any change of attitude. If not, then we have serious issues.

I don't think we do.

I think we do.

Our leaders break like china.

Been listening to Sparkadia...

An appropriate juncture to revisit this notion for sure.

Leadership; A process of influence by one upon another(s)

He in lies the pivotal characteristic...>>> Influence

The younger , less experienced are simply 'influenced' by those with more. Its not a terribly complicated concept.

But often many forget that it can go off in a number of directions. The newbies will look to their more experienced ,established, peers for indications of how they ought to be going about their work. If they see the elders, the leadership group, the captains etc all putting in 110% irregardles of the nature or state of play they learn this is what is du riguer . This how you play, ALWAYS. If they see their peers second guessing, shrirking , slacking or simply playing with indifference they ( newbies) wil lsimply assume thats ok, thats how it is, thats all i need to do. in simple terms monkey see- monkey do.

So not only is the lack of leadership detrimental to the game ( and team ) but its setting a bad tone. Its effectively doubly poor.

Imreally not sure whatwe do about Green. I justdont think he's up to it. The added responsibility is cruelling him.

Rightly or wrongly , often in life whther its in battle of just work etc when a leader fails another will look to feel the void. Natural leaders always come forth, its their way.

Some one(s) need to step up to the plate. Not in such a way as to step on Brads toes but in a manner which says..its ok mate... WE can do it...this is how.

An appropriate juncture to revisit this notion for sure.

Leadership; A process of influence by one upon another(s)

He in lies the pivotal characteristic...>>> Influence

...

...

...

What I posted a little earlier in the INTIMIDATION thread (pinned topic):

We need to instil some non-negotiables within the young team now as they grow and help build a consitent competitive culture. My concern is the lack of top end leaders we currently have. Hence the thread I started a month ago on "Leadership lacking". Green & Davey have been okay in previous years, but this year they have been anything but good on the field where it counts.

Unfortunately, our young aspiring leaders are just that, too young to step up physically time and again. We'll have to generate on field leadership over time.

Quite frankly, the leaders need to collectively set the tone and lead by example on a consistent basis. This inconsistent nature of pulling the finger out only when it suits (when the blowtorch is applied) is not good enough and not good enough for who we have drafted to look up to as role models onfield. Junior was a good leader to put his head over the ball in the packs and contested balls. We've no doubt missed him, not just for his football, but importantly his leadership and attitude to contest.

Someone like a Lenny Hayes would be perfect atm. Even Junior himself.

snap...lol

I don't think the club realised the dearth of leadership when they stuck by the Junior decision after Bruce left.

I can recall Col Sylvia speaking about how professional Scully and Trengove were in their first year, and how he was so impressed by this given the youth. Made me think that the bar had been set too low for a long time. If you look at the previous generation of MFC footballers, they all teased us with their potential yet none became A grade footballers, names like Yze, Robbo, White, Neita, Trav Johnstone, whilst all commendable servants of the club, you got the sense that near enuff was good enuff.

The thing is, we can keep on talking about it, or we can hope the club reviews it and address' it. Do we bank on getting it right over time by crossing our fingers and develop it ? Or do we fast track it ?

Carlton fast tracked their group with Judd.

I don't have any answers.

But geez, I like Lenny.

I was really hopeful of landing Mundy in the off-season.

I can recall Col Sylvia speaking about how professional Scully and Trengove were in their first year, and how he was so impressed by this given the youth. Made me think that the bar had been set too low for a long time. If you look at the previous generation of MFC footballers, they all teased us with their potential yet none became A grade footballers, names like Yze, Robbo, White, Neita, Trav Johnstone, whilst all commendable servants of the club, you got the sense that near enuff was good enuff.

Yes, the kids are the leaders.

I really struggle to see this leadership group as anything other than a contradiction in terms.

I harp on this, but if Bailey or his cohorts gets the boot, I hope Jim gets to work on the LG aswell...

Yes, the kids are the leaders.

I really struggle to see this leadership group as anything other than a contradiction in terms.

I harp on this, but if Bailey or his cohorts gets the boot, I hope Jim gets to work on the LG aswell...

Maybe they are starting to wake up to this fact following the Moloney debacle. Some say we were harsh, others not harsh enough, but if that is the vice captains idea of preparation then performances like that against WCE will become the norm.

I don't think the club realised the dearth of leadership when they stuck by the Junior decision after Bruce left.

Another good call by you last year IIRC rpfc. In hindsight.

Mind you, I don't think we were banking on McKenzie's groin troubles and Scully being out half a season at the time either..

Maybe they are starting to wake up to this fact following the Moloney debacle. Some say we were harsh, others not harsh enough, but if that is the vice captains idea of preparation then performances like that against WCE will become the norm.

Those outside the club (ie. journos) think it was harsh but the standard we set has to be stratospheric to get the NQR minds of the LG +Sylvia +Jamar into decent enough shape to effect the young talent in the right way.

Frack Leading Teams, we should get Grimes, Frawley, Garland, Scully, Morton, Watts, Trengove, Petterd, Tapscott, Jurrah, Wonna, McKenzie, and Gysberts in a room, tell them they, and only they, will be in the 5-man LG - and that it will be decided in the next 4 months.

See who wants to lead of those that will lead us to a flag.

Frack Leading Teams, we should get Grimes, Frawley, Garland, Scully, Morton, Watts, Trengove, Petterd, Tapscott, Jurrah, Wonna, McKenzie, and Gysberts in a room, tell them they, and only they, will be in the 5-man LG - and that it will be decided in the next 4 months.

See who wants to lead of those that will lead us to a flag.

Not a bad idea.

*BUMP*

I think we do.

I'm glad you brought this one up again HT. And this post may sound like I'm changing my tune slightly.

The biggest thing with our leaders is the consistency. When things are going well, our leaders stand and deliver. Moloney would go close to having 9 Brownlow votes next to his name already, but none of those votes from our defeats.

So, does this mean we have a leadership problem, or does it just highlight what level our leaders are at?

The thing that irritates me the most is that a handful of our players have a title "Leadership Group" after their name. I'd love to get rid of the "leadership group" title, or expand the group to the 22 blokes that wear the red and blue every week. Each week we have some form of leadership, generally led by Jamar. Watts took on some leadership against the Eagles - he was the one walking off at half time revving the boys up.

It is the perfect oppoturnity for some of these younger kids to stand up and change the leadership culture at the Club. I said it in another thread, but this is where Scully has been a massive loss for us this year. A few times last year he acted like a leader of the Club, and that was in his first year. Look at Martin with the Tiger's this year (in his 2nd year), Scully could have given us that drive, and let's face it, he has the ability to do (obviously there is no facts to say this could have happened).

From the outside looking in, I think Grimes has been the biggest disappointment this season. As a much publicised future leader, why hasn't he stood up and taken the game by the balls by moving himself in to a position where he can have a big influence on the game? Coach's instructions? Maybe, but I'm sure there are a handful of players in the league that have that licence. Maybe I'm 3 years early for this criticism.

Yes, the kids are the leaders.

I really struggle to see this leadership group as anything other than a contradiction in terms.

I harp on this, but if Bailey or his cohorts gets the boot, I hope Jim gets to work on the LG aswell...

I think anything of note that maters will from now on carry , if approved, a seal with letters JS !!..everything...until it all is sorted and able to run on its own feet.

So, does this mean we have a leadership problem, or does it just highlight what level our leaders are at?

I think it's a bit of both. It's where we are at in terms of the aspiring young leaders not being able to fulfil certain aspects - we're probably a bit premature in asking too much of them tbh. Plus the top end of leaders ie. Captain, Vice-Captain in particular, not having as much influence or output as of recent seasons.

All in all it equals a big void.

PS. Granted, Moloney & Rivers have been good in parts here and there.

Ok...all this talk of leadership...all this desire for a sound older head who just gets it done, who leads by example, who is looked upon for not just his game-day ability but off filed mentoring leads me to a certain individual already on our list

yet to fire a shot for the Dees.......

Looking forward to when he does though

Colin Garland is one of the "senior" younger players on the list. He is charismatic, intelligent, courageous, articulate and sensible. I am aware of him quietly pulling a couple of blokes into line.

He is one of the sleeper leaders on our list, would like to see him given increased responsibilty as the season continues.

Leaders are often borne out of times like these, and sometimes they are not the ones you expect.

I don't think the club realised the dearth of leadership when they stuck by the Junior decision after Bruce left.

I think they rolled the dice on it.

So far it's come unstuck, bu that doesn't mean it won't workout in the long run. The selectors have tried to force our experienced players to step up a high Step, and so far haven't been able to do so. Difficult after the nature of what our past seasons of rebuild were about.

So, in context of this, we, the supporters have to remain supportive and patient, and the selectors have to put some more experience into the mix.

It seems so far the selectors have listened. Lets see over the next month how things panout and which PLAYERS stepup!

May as well give it to "Good Times" Grimes with the young crop making up deputies be that Trengove, Scully et al, whomever the inner sanctum deem to be worthy.

Let them take ownership of the team as they are going to be key to our push for a premiership, I fear beamer, rivers, sylvia, davey and green wont be around whilst Dunn and Bate are on shaky ground.