The next wave

[Guest Redleg_24]

Yeah, well if that is the case, we better start looking for some silver spoon fed panzy from Brighton Grammar, who dominates at APS level but spends the majority of his time at AFL level falling over. Good idea

No seriously, what we really need is a footballer with great intelligence and study ethic who is a model prefect type who hates the hard contest. Oh wait...we got of those....sheeesh. I couldn't give a stuff if the bloke was expelled from school. if he can play football well and is hungry to succeed, that is all that matters to me.

[Red Sox 2]

And here it comes again.....knew it wouldn't be long before the knocks came again on that Melbourne listed player.

Going to be some very very silly looking people in a couple of years. The same people will have this Melbourne listed playerin their favourite player(s) list by then....sorry should've just left it alone.

[e25 5]

No seriously, what we really need is a footballer with great intelligence and study ethic who is a model prefect type who hates the hard contest. Oh wait...we got of those....sheeesh. I couldn't give a stuff if the bloke was expelled from school. if he can play football well and is hungry to succeed, that is all that matters to me.

Whoever said they are mutually exclusive?

You'd rather we recruit the next Fevola?

To infer that Watts lacks hunger for the hard contest is ignorant.

He currently lacks the physicality due to underdeveloped frame and core but that is a very different thing.

Character is not about performing well at school, but you've shown that you haven't grasped the concept.

Never mind the fact that Darling is the perfect height for a mid-sized forward.

Keep digging a bigger hole...

[Guest Redleg_24]

Whoever said they are mutually exclusive?

You'd rather we recruit the next Fevola?

To infer that Watts lacks hunger for the hard contest is ignorant.

He currently lacks the physicality due to underdeveloped frame and core but that is a very different thing.

Character is not about performing well at school, but you've shown that you haven't grasped the concept.

Never mind the fact that Darling is the perfect height for a mid-sized forward.

Keep digging a bigger hole...

Righto! That is your opinion. Welcome to it. I just don't see the fact taht a bloke has been expelled from school as relevant when considering if we should draft him. In answer to your question, no I don't particularly want the next Fev playing for us. But, if the bloke kicks 70 odd goals and we win a flag, I couldn't give a stuff about his character.

I like Watts, don't get me wrong. I have not participated in any Watts bashing in the countless threads that have floated about here. (Don't turn this into another one of those threads please!) You may confirm that as fact. i HAVE IN FACT DEFENDED HIM and told people to quit the relentless debate. However, this talk of 'character' pizzes me off. We have for too long been a soft footy club that recruits model citizens and so forth, at the expense of opening the eyes and gioing after talent no matter what the baggage may be. I would rather win a premiership than have fantastic morals. But hey, that's just me

[Watt and Howe? 16]

Again-I disagree with you- Darling has class- he also can win a game off his own foot but he also is tough. A great mix for us.

Darling would be a terrible choice for any team. There was a good article in the West Australian a few weeks ago explaining how Jack has slipped a bit from once being touted as a top ten pick. His height is a huge issue and he's currently being tried as a midfielder. Moreover, Jack has huge issues off the field IMO. I live in WA, am the same age as these blokes and was in the same year as Brandon. It's ashame the GC has already snagged Dave and Brando they would be great additions to the side (even though we have a plethra of midfielders and small forwards). Jack's a live wire.

[Red Sox 2]

Some good info there Masterbater.....some talent coming out of that side of the country it seems. Good for all to be informed.

[e25 5]

Righto! That is your opinion. Welcome to it. I just don't see the fact taht a bloke has been expelled from school as relevant when considering if we should draft him. In answer to your question, no I don't particularly want the next Fev playing for us. But, if the bloke kicks 70 odd goals and we win a flag, I couldn't give a stuff about his character.

I like Watts, don't get me wrong. I have not participated in any Watts bashing in the countless threads that have floated about here. (Don't turn this into another one of those threads please!) You may confirm that as fact. i HAVE IN FACT DEFENDED HIM and told people to quit the relentless debate. However, this talk of 'character' pizzes me off. We have for too long been a soft footy club that recruits model citizens and so forth, at the expense of opening the eyes and gioing after talent no matter what the baggage may be. I would rather win a premiership than have fantastic morals. But hey, that's just me

I never mentioned Watts' character; you alluded to him yourself.

As far as I'm concerned Watts is irrelevant to this discussion.

I never said Darling would be a bad choice or that he was another Fevola.

There have been rumblings that he has character issues and if they were true, taking into consideration his size, to take him at pick 10, 12 or 14 may be too high.

Like I said, he's 2cm shorter than Lynden Dunn.

Not writing him off, just mentioning a few possibly cons.

[Guest Redleg_24]

I never mentioned Watts' character; you alluded to him yourself.

As far as I'm concerned Watts is irrelevant to this discussion.

I never said Darling would be a bad choice or that he was another Fevola.

There have been rumblings that he has character issues and if they were true, taking into consideration his size, to take him at pick 10, 12 or 14 may be too high.

Like I said, he's 2cm shorter than Lynden Dunn.

Not writing him off, just mentioning a few possibly cons.

Is that E25 or Enforcer25

Coz someone had this to say

"Not sure that we'd pick Darling.

There are whispers of character issues and we hold this area in high esteem.

There was that incident with him getting expelled from school.."

Multiple accounts?

[e25 5]

Is that E25 or Enforcer25

Coz someone had this to say

"Not sure that we'd pick Darling.

There are whispers of character issues and we hold this area in high esteem.

There was that incident with him getting expelled from school.."

Multiple accounts?

Nope, just slightly changed my screen name.

Didn't think it was such a big change that it would need an explanation.

(It occurred to me it might seem like I was trying to come across as a tough guy;

it is an homage to one of my teammates and the nickname he's given to me.

Not that it matters.)

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Nope, just slightly changed my screen name.

Didn't think it was such a big change that it would need an explanation.

(It occurred to me it might seem like I was trying to come across as a tough guy;

it is an homage to one of my teammates and the nickname he's given to me.

Not that it matters.)

Seeing you insult people for suggesting that Watts needs to get more involved, then post that "Strauss is soft" a total change of identity is probably the best option.

On topic went down to Skilled yesterday a young half forward by the name of Josh Walker, number 34 for Vic Country was very impressive yesterday. Listed at 194cm from Lara. Kicked 2 in the first quarter and was in everything. Strong boy and very mobile. Loves to take a mark and gets involved.

I have him filed as one to watch.

[e25 5]

Seeing you insult people for suggesting that Watts needs to get more involved, then post that "Strauss is soft" a total change of identity is probably the best option.

On topic went down to Skilled yesterday a young half forward by the name of Josh Walker, number 34 for Vic Country was very impressive yesterday. Listed at 194cm from Lara. Kicked 2 in the first quarter and was in everything. Strong boy and very mobile. Loves to take a mark and gets involved.

I have him filed as one to watch.

Going the man there a bit Dandee?

Who's got the ball now?

Care to bring up an example of where I insulted anyone, or are you just running your mouth?

And I happen to see a distinct difference in Watts and Strauss - should I be condemned for that..?

Not like you to make wild claims with no evidence to support them...

Weak effort.

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

..................................

I couldn't give a stuff if the bloke was expelled from school. if he can play football well and is hungry to succeed, that is all that matters to me.

A few of points Redleg 24. They relate generally to the importance of AFL players being of sound character, and not specifically to the young player under discussion.

- these days all AFL clubs do comprehensive character checks on players before they are drafted. That suggests to me that they regard having the right 'character' as important, wouldn't you agree?

- 'playing football well' is indeed a key part of being a good AFL footballer ....... but so too is having the right disciplines to prepare and train as a professional, to play team football, and to follow team rules, etc. I'm sure we can all recall plenty Melbourne players who could 'play football well' but did not tick some of the other boxes, and consequently failed to realise their potential;

- off-field incidents are becoming more and more frowned upon by the AFL and clubs, and rightly so. They can tarnish the image of the game and they can cost sponsorship $s. Important issues as far as the Melbourne Footy Club don't you think?

I sincerely hope you do 'give a stuff' about these considerations.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Going the man there a bit Dandee?

Who's got the ball now?

Care to bring up an example of where I insulted anyone, or are you just running your mouth?

And I happen to see a distinct difference in Watts and Strauss - should I be condemned for that..?

Not like you to make wild claims with no evidence to support them...

Weak effort.

Ok I'll bite.

Evidence henceforth;

QUOTE (dandeeman @ Jul 11 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On today's game and all others I have seen him play he plays on the periphery of the contest. I would have thought that was fairly indisputable.

Enforcer says:

"I'm afraid I dispute this. I think you're an idiot if this is what you've deduced from watching him play.

Just my opinion."

(Post 75 Jack Watts)

You followed that up with a number of other insults.

Yet it is apparently ok to say:

"Strauss is undoubtedly soft at present."

(Post 87 Jurrah set to return)

Need more evidence of your hypocrisy or have you seen enough.

You will not find any posts of mine calling anyone soft. How about enforcing your own standards upon yourself.

Edited July 1, 2010 by dandeeman

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

A few of points Redleg 24. They relate generally to the importance of AFL players being of sound character, and not specifically to the young player under discussion.

- these days all AFL clubs do comprehensive character checks on players before they are drafted. That suggests to me that they regard having the right 'character' as important, wouldn't you agree?

- 'playing football well' is indeed a key part of being a good AFL footballer ....... but so too is having the right disciplines to prepare and train as a professional, to play team football, and to follow team rules, etc. I'm sure we can all recall plenty Melbourne players who could 'play football well' but did not tick some of the other boxes, and consequently failed to realise their potential;

- off-field incidents are becoming more and more frowned upon by the AFL and clubs, and rightly so. They can tarnish the image of the game and they can cost sponsorship $s. Important issues as far as the Melbourne Footy Club don't you think?

I sincerely hope you do 'give a stuff' about these considerations.

Well said Dof. Quality of character is a key requisite of a successful footballer in todays football and its no secret that this element is prominent amongst Scully, Trengove, Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Grimes and Co.

Anyone for Laurence Angwin or Mitch Thorp?

[Guest Redleg_24]

So a guy is expelled from School and is automatically a write off. OMG. What a farce. Anyone know anything more about his bad character. What school was he at in any case.????? Please, someone provide me the guys wrap sheet.

ps E25 I am waiting to see you crawl out of that large hole you just dug yourself. Dandeeman stitchd you right up! well played!

Edited July 1, 2010 by Redleg_24

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Well said Dof. Quality of character is a key requisite of a successful footballer in todays football and its no secret that this element is prominent amongst Scully, Trengove, Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Grimes and Co.

Anyone for Laurence Angwin or Mitch Thorp?

I agree to a point but the club will have to weigh up the pros and cons.

Carey, Brereton, Lockett, Franklin all flawed characters and all match winners. Then you have the Thorps, Angwins, Lovetts, etc.

How good is he? Does he want to play team footy? Will he do the work etc?

[Guest Redleg_24]

I agree to a point but the club will have to weigh up the pros and cons.

Carey, Brereton, Lockett, Franklin all flawed characters and all match winners. Then you have the Thorps, Angwins, Lovetts, etc.

How good is he? Does he want to play team footy? Will he do the work etc?

You are as wise as the bloke in your avatar. Thank good for posters like you.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I agree to a point but the club will have to weigh up the pros and cons.

Carey, Brereton, Lockett, Franklin all flawed characters and all match winners. Then you have the Thorps, Angwins, Lovetts, etc.

How good is he? Does he want to play team footy? Will he do the work etc?

I think the goal posts have moved since Carey and Dermie played. I think they may have hit an iceberg earlier in their career if they played today.

While they reach heights as players, Carey and Cousins easily demonstrate the destructiveness on a playing group.

Its fair to say that off field problems and their reflection on character have detracted enormously from their respective legacies.

But to ignore character in the assessment of a footballer is naive. Because you end up buying a package where you never enjoy full functionality and potential because in many cases the player will never have the strength of character to commit, establish and develop his special talent. And young footballers with a load of talent and poor chaaracter are a dime a dozen. You often dont hear about them because their own personal flaws negate their underlying talent.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Its a vexed question. Character, past, present and future. Not everything is set in stone. As many suggest its simply due diligence to assess where a player's head is at and suitability to the sport at that level. With the way AFL clubs approach the well being and nurturing of its young charges there is some scope for taking aboard a less than perfect soul with the view that they had the potential to sort t themsleves out.

Do we seriously dismiss the potential of a kid on the basis of what might have happened, that is without balance and thought to what he might become ? Many of us have possibly done some silly and stupid things in our youth but still managed to work our way to maturity without subsequent incident.

I think you really have to approach the assesment on a player by player basis, there's really no one size fits all answer to the suitability of a player.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I think the goal posts have moved since Carey and Dermie played. I think they may have hit an iceberg earlier in their career if they played today.

While they reach heights as players, Carey and Cousins easily demonstrate the destructiveness on a playing group.

Its fair to say that off field problems and their reflection on character have detracted enormously from their respective legacies.

But to ignore character in the assessment of a footballer is naive. Because you end up buying a package where you never enjoy full functionality and potential because in many cases the player will never have the strength of character to commit, establish and develop his special talent. And young footballers with a load of talent and poor chaaracter are a dime a dozen. You often dont hear about them because their own personal flaws negate their underlying talent.

Agreed with the highlighted part completely, I don't think anyone suggested ignoring the character of potential draftees..

I still believe that there is something to be said for the over-confident, brash, party boy, forward. They often have endearing qualities that go with the less endearing ones. The qualities that can win you matches and premierships. I believe that you can have too many conservative, preppy types in your footy team.

If Wayne Carey was an 18 year old recruit in the upcoming draft I would be happy for the club to take a chance on him. Seriously who wouldn't?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I still believe that there is something to be said for the over-confident, brash, party boy, forward. They often have endearing qualities that go with the less endearing ones. The qualities that can win you matches and premierships. I believe that you can have too many conservative, preppy types in your footy team.

If Wayne Carey was an 18 year old recruit in the upcoming draft I would be happy for the club to take a chance on him. Seriously who wouldn't?

I dont think character is choice between those two styles. You can be either of those personality types and still be of high character.

And I dont think being the over confident, brash party boy was necessarily the problem with a number of wayward chapmpions.

How many Wayne Carey's have there been? I dont think Carey's issues were evident when he was recruited. They evolved.

However there were other No 1 picks of the past who would not have been No 1 these days based on the basis of character. Gardiner and TJ for starters. Both have been wastes of formidable talent due to their own issues.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I dont think character is choice between those two styles. You can be either of those personality types and still be of high character.

And I dont think being the over confident, brash party boy was necessarily the problem with a number of wayward chapmpions.

How many Wayne Carey's have there been? I dont think Carey's issues were evident when he was recruited. They evolved.

However there were other No 1 picks of the past who would not have been No 1 these days based on the basis of character. Gardiner and TJ for starters. Both have been wastes of formidable talent due to their own issues.

I agree with most of that, but having known Carey, (not well but well enough) I would say that he always had those issues.

The brash, over confident forward is actually a fairly common animal, especially over the last thirty years. They have also been some of the most successful, obviously though not exclusively.

Franklin is probably the most exciting young tall forward in the comp and he fits that mould I would have thought. Would you pass him by Rhino?

Edited July 1, 2010 by dandeeman

[Red Sox 2]

I dont think character is choice between those two styles. You can be either of those personality types and still be of high character.

And I dont think being the over confident, brash party boy was necessarily the problem with a number of wayward chapmpions.

How many Wayne Carey's have there been? I dont think Carey's issues were evident when he was recruited. They evolved.

However there were other No 1 picks of the past who would not have been No 1 these days based on the basis of character. Gardiner and TJ for starters. Both have been wastes of formidable talent due to their own issues.

Good discussions happening here. One point I'll add on Carey. Growing up my aunt lived in a court opposite a young Wayne Carey in Ascot Vale, around the time North were dominating reserves/u-19 football. He was certainly very brash, cocky and he knew exactly where he was going from day one and the qualities he possessed. He wasn't the king as he became to be known obviously and I was welcomed around them anytime. When he did become king I was then frequenting the same bar (Turf Club in Flem) that the majority of Nth players attended and Wayne was the same guy as the years previous, just that his bullet proof mentality had expanded from not just his exploits on the field but off the field. He still had the same time for me and knew who I was, which as younger bloke I appreciated but it was obvious that he knew he was special and could be treated as such. Which I guess comes back to proving your point Rhino that Carey's issues did evolve because he let it all get to his head and became affected by who he was.

Nathan Buckley for instance would have had similar traits to Carey at a similar age but did not allow himself to evolve in the same manner away from his football.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Which I guess comes back to proving your point Rhino that Carey's issues did evolve because he let it all get to his head and became affected by who he was.

Nathan Buckley for instance would have had similar traits to Carey at a similar age but did not allow himself to evolve in the same manner away from his football.

I havev heard similar tales of Carey from ex players. Its a pity that some of the key support mechanicisms in his early years did not provide Carey with the tools to cope. The Ox had similar challenges with destructive behaviour but has literally had to face his own demons. He burnt alot of bridges along the way Ox but I admire him for the way he has got things back on track. Good on him.

[beelzebub 23,313]

I havev heard similar tales of Carey from ex players. Its a pity that some of the key support mechanicisms in his early years did not provide Carey with the tools to cope. The Ox had similar challenges with destructive behaviour but has literally had to face his own demons. He burnt alot of bridges along the way Ox but I admire him for the way he has got things back on track. Good on him.

So does this not go to an argument that its not wholly teh nature or character of the young impressionable player but as much the natureand quality of the clubs attention to mentoring and personal development ? i.e you might be able to take a semi roughie and polish him ?