IMO the disposal stats are inherently flawed.

A player can direct a pass that may hit its target but in the process put a teammate is such jeopardy that his block gets knocked clear out of the stadium gates, so that it bounces down the steps leading to Richmond station, rolls onto Brunton Avenue, bounces backwards off of a passing bus and rebounds slowly into the club shop.

The statistician will calmly lean forward and mark it down an effective disposal

That's not correct. You dont know the protocol, that would more likely be deemed an ineffective kick.

Aaron Davey has been fantastic by hand and foot this year and 86% backs that up.

That's not correct. You dont know the protocol, that would more likely be deemed an ineffective kick.

Aaron Davey has been fantastic by hand and foot this year and 86% backs that up.

OK, I have done a bit of research, and I found this on Champion Data's website:

An effective long kick has to travel more than 40 metres to a 50/50 contested or better for the team. The computer adds four rankings points for each effective long kick.

If the long kick goes to a teammate for an uncontested possession, research shows this is very valuable for the team and the computer adds five rankings points to the players tally.

Effective short kicks are less than 40 metres that result in uncontested possession to a teammate. The computer also adds four rankings points for these.

Clanger kicks are when the kick goes down the throat of the opposition and the computer deducts eight rankings points from the players tally because this hurts the team badly.

Ineffective kicks occur most often where players kick short to a contest and the computer ignores these by giving a zero rankings value.

This was from http://www.championdata.com.au/files/rankings.pdf, which explains how they come up with those 'Ranking Points' that you see in the Herald Sun's stats after a match. This might be a good way to look at what statisticians mean when they say 'effective disposal'.

I would not turn your back on the draft at this point. I think there is a bit of dust to settle there.

i think your spot on here Rhino. Lot of water to go under the bridge both on the potential draft players and current listed players.

One thing I'm sure we will agree on Dunn, is one that we are all going to be watching closely for the rest of the year.

I agree not tough enough, and in the pushing and shoving last weekend he was on his back like a mongrel dog, didnt want to get up

This form of attack on Dunn [and it occurs in relation to Newton also] irritates me. I've watched him closely this year and have seen 1 occasion on which , on one view, he appeared to show not enough g and d. It was an incident in the ist quarter v Geelong, on the outer wing when a ball came over his head and he didn't mark it. Otherwise I've seen nothing and share the generally expressed irritation that he's not played regularly in attack, because he has good kicking skills--better than most of ours. He kicked half the team's goals v Adelaide and also a critical one v Richmond when they had put on a spurt in the 3rd quarter.

It's interesting that this perception of cowardliness is often raised against talented forwards. Pardon me for showing my age but I vividly remember Jack Dyer--then a respected radio commentator--absolutely bagging Hassa Mann once when Hassa was about 20. I can recall exactly Jack's comment--'the least said about Hassa the better in my opinion--he doesn't go in"

Well he ended up as captain, kicked a hell of a lot of goals and featured in Melbourn'es team of the century.

You've got to cut these young forward types a bit of slack in my view

...

I would not turn your back on the draft at this point. I think there is a bit of dust to settle there.

Totally agree. That there are advocates of not using the third round pick is quite surprising to me.

This form of attack on Dunn [and it occurs in relation to Newton also] irritates me. I've watched him closely this year and have seen 1 occasion on which , on one view, he appeared to show not enough g and d. It was an incident in the ist quarter v Geelong, on the outer wing when a ball came over his head and he didn't mark it. Otherwise I've seen nothing and share the generally expressed irritation that he's not played regularly in attack, because he has good kicking skills--better than most of ours. He kicked half the team's goals v Adelaide and also a critical one v Richmond when they had put on a spurt in the 3rd quarter.

It's interesting that this perception of cowardliness is often raised against talented forwards. Pardon me for showing my age but I vividly remember Jack Dyer--then a respected radio commentator--absolutely bagging Hassa Mann once when Hassa was about 20. I can recall exactly Jack's comment--'the least said about Hassa the better in my opinion--he doesn't go in"

Well he ended up as captain, kicked a hell of a lot of goals and featured in Melbourn'es team of the century.

You've got to cut these young forward types a bit of slack in my view

The posters comments are more reflective of the poster than of Dunn.

However, if Dunn is half as good as Hassa I would be rapt. He isn't by a mile and there are genuine concerns about Dunn's attack on the contest. It cruels and negates other parts of his game.

This form of attack on Dunn [and it occurs in relation to Newton also] irritates me. I've watched him closely this year and have seen 1 occasion on which , on one view, he appeared to show not enough g and d. It was an incident in the ist quarter v Geelong, on the outer wing when a ball came over his head and he didn't mark it. Otherwise I've seen nothing and share the generally expressed irritation that he's not played regularly in attack, because he has good kicking skills--better than most of ours. He kicked half the team's goals v Adelaide and also a critical one v Richmond when they had put on a spurt in the 3rd quarter.

It's interesting that this perception of cowardliness is often raised against talented forwards. Pardon me for showing my age but I vividly remember Jack Dyer--then a respected radio commentator--absolutely bagging Hassa Mann once when Hassa was about 20. I can recall exactly Jack's comment--'the least said about Hassa the better in my opinion--he doesn't go in"

Well he ended up as captain, kicked a hell of a lot of goals and featured in Melbourn'es team of the century.

You've got to cut these young forward types a bit of slack in my view

Finally someone with a half decent post. Dunn will be at melbourne for a long time. You need versatile players like him in every side.

Give the young kids TIME!!!! They will develop. People bagged out frawley, jones and garland, and they are still bagging morton. God forbid watts comes in and doesnt kick a goal........

This form of attack on Dunn [and it occurs in relation to Newton also] irritates me. I've watched him closely this year and have seen 1 occasion on which , on one view, he appeared to show not enough g and d. It was an incident in the ist quarter v Geelong, on the outer wing when a ball came over his head and he didn't mark it. Otherwise I've seen nothing and share the generally expressed irritation that he's not played regularly in attack, because he has good kicking skills--better than most of ours. He kicked half the team's goals v Adelaide and also a critical one v Richmond when they had put on a spurt in the 3rd quarter.

It's interesting that this perception of cowardliness is often raised against talented forwards. Pardon me for showing my age but I vividly remember Jack Dyer--then a respected radio commentator--absolutely bagging Hassa Mann once when Hassa was about 20. I can recall exactly Jack's comment--'the least said about Hassa the better in my opinion--he doesn't go in"

Well he ended up as captain, kicked a hell of a lot of goals and featured in Melbourn'es team of the century.

You've got to cut these young forward types a bit of slack in my view

There wouldn't be many/any players in the history of the game that were always happy with their efforts to commit their bodies to contests. However, Dunn is a serial offender. He's at his worst going for marks when he expects contact, but he's also been found wanting contesting loose balls at pace. You've seen only one instance this year, whilst I've noted many.

More to the point, when a player has this flaw entrenched in their makeup, like I believe Dunn has, he will avoid certain situations so as not to highlight or expose this said weakness. So it effects their ability to get involved, or make the play.

He's a very disappointing first round pick and will find it extremely difficult to make a position his own, or to ever cement a place in the side. The young talent coming through behind him only makes it tougher. He's not a KPP, he's not a quality midfielder, and he doesn't use the ball exceptionally well. His only chance is as a hard running third tall forward - like his debut year. But I'm dubious to say the least.

Finally someone with a half decent post. Dunn will be at melbourne for a long time. You need versatile players like him in every side.

Give the young kids TIME!!!! They will develop. People bagged out frawley, jones and garland, and they are still bagging morton. God forbid watts comes in and doesnt kick a goal........

How is Dunn versatile? As yet, he hasn't had dominant performances, or even good enough performances, to suggest he's capable forward, back, or in the midfield. As it stands he is a bit player.

With Frawley, Jones and Garland, people at least knew what position they were playing. With Dunn, after 4 years, we still don't know where his best position is, and he hasn't really shown enough in any position.

How is Dunn versatile? As yet, he hasn't had dominant performances, or even good enough performances, to suggest he's capable forward, back, or in the midfield. As it stands he is a bit player.

With Frawley, Jones and Garland, people at least knew what position they were playing. With Dunn, after 4 years, we still don't know where his best position is, and he hasn't really shown enough in any position.

Short Memories?

Last year he played a heap of games as a go-with negating player and received much praise from the club for that role. It [censored] me off because I thought it was a waste of forward line talent.

However I also recall that the first thing Norm Smith did with Stuart Spencer in 1952 was to place him in the back pocket, which similarly irritated my old man! Spencer in 1955/6 was the best rover in the league and I think, won at least 1 best and fairest. A few games on the backline might help Dunn, just as it helped Neitz.

He has talent--stick with him!

Short Memories?

Last year he played a heap of games as a go-with negating player and received much praise from the club for that role. It [censored] me off because I thought it was a waste of forward line talent.

However I also recall that the first thing Norm Smith did with Stuart Spencer in 1952 was to place him in the back pocket, which similarly irritated my old man! Spencer in 1955/6 was the best rover in the league and I think, won at least 1 best and fairest. A few games on the backline might help Dunn, just as it helped Neitz.

He has talent--stick with him!

Dunn wasn't a good stopper. He might have a had one or two good goes at it, but Bartram does it much better than he does. And Bartram doesn't mind getting the contested ball or putting his body on the line.

I agree with Hannabal above where he says that Dunn's best chance is as a third forward. He just seems to have neither the aerobic capacity nor the skill to play in the midfield. And as for defence, well I think there are better options down there. Cheney should be in front of Dunn in terms of a half back flanker/back pocket.

Dunn wasn't a good stopper. He might have a had one or two good goes at it, but Bartram does it much better than he does. And Bartram doesn't mind getting the contested ball or putting his body on the line.

I agree with Hannabal above where he says that Dunn's best chance is as a third forward. He just seems to have neither the aerobic capacity nor the skill to play in the midfield. And as for defence, well I think there are better options down there. Cheney should be in front of Dunn in terms of a half back flanker/back pocket.

'one or two good goes at it"?

I don't think so. At the 150th celebration dinner, the senior player at our table commented that the team was pleased that at last they had a tagger of a size big enough to run with the tall mobile players who have killed Melbourne in the past--I recall Embley being mentioned. The sight of Godfrey or McDonald running around with Goodes was ridiculous

There wouldn't be many/any players in the history of the game that were always happy with their efforts to commit their bodies to contests. However, Dunn is a serial offender.

As was Brad Green in his early days. This trait can be learnt and with the size he now has he will hopefully add it to his game. He's young and I haven't written him off just yet.

Look at the two number 14 picks we've had. Dunn and Frawley.

One player shows grunt, determination, a real hunger for the ball, loves body on body contact, doesn't mind giving a bit of lip service to his opponent. Can take contested marks, breaks lines with speed and kick pretty well with penetration. He's also played exceptionally well all season to date. A worthy first round pick.

The other player is Lynden Dunn who still needs to find his niche in the side and contribute significantly before the seasons end.

Look at the two number 14 picks we've had. Dunn and Frawley.

One player shows grunt, determination, a real hunger for the ball, loves body on body contact, doesn't mind giving a bit of lip service to his opponent. Can take contested marks, breaks lines with speed and kick pretty well with penetration. He's also played exceptionally well all season to date. A worthy first round pick.

The other player is Lynden Dunn who still needs to find his niche in the side and contribute significantly before the seasons end.

Frawley's having a good year, no doubt. Only last year people were calling for his head. Let's hope Dunn can show the same development over the next 12 - 18 months.

As was Brad Green in his early days. This trait can be learnt and with the size he now has he will hopefully add it to his game. He's young and I haven't written him off just yet.

I don't agree with this. Whilst Green didn't overtly impact games with a physical presence, he didn't constantly welsh situations like Dunn. I've never had cause to question Green's courage, even in the early days. Some supporters thought he was soft and whilst he was far from hard, he was never a squib.

Dunn on the other hand...

even if he is not in the best 22 next year, keeping him = depth.

Agreed. Depth is important here. With Wheels coming to the end of his career, Bartram and Dunn are our only two taggers at the moment. We need at least two or three and Dunn, although not a stand out, is versatile.

I don't agree with this. Whilst Green didn't overtly impact games with a physical presence, he didn't constantly welsh situations like Dunn. I've never had cause to question Green's courage, even in the early days. Some supporters thought he was soft and whilst he was far from hard, he was never a squib.

Dunn on the other hand...

Green regularly left me with the same feeling Dunn does now. Green was a classic frontrunner, contests were not his thing, nor did he have the body to really impart a physical presence, to his credit he turned this around. I'm backing Dunn to do the same.

Green regularly left me with the same feeling Dunn does now. Green was a classic frontrunner, contests were not his thing, nor did he have the body to really impart a physical presence, to his credit he turned this around. I'm backing Dunn to do the same.

Welching a situation is far different to not impacting a physical presence. Green never welched a contest and certainly was not a frontrunner.

One of Meesen Jamar or Johnson will go. None are good enough to justify an AFL spot as a ruckman. Had Meesen not broken down then IMO PJ was in the gun. And his performance in Perth alone is not enough to save him. If the injury to Meesen is that bad then MFC should pay him out. PJ/Jamar survives. We have Jamar, Spencer, Meesen on the injury list and you cant see the logic of having four ruckman on the list. Brilliant. Some clubs have up to six rucks on the list. While there is a market for established rucks there isnt for rucks that are bog ordinary and have injury concerns.

Surely, Jamar is the one that has to go? Meesen has already shown more than Jamar has in his entire career. Jamar's had his time and hasn't been good enough. Pity we don't still have Jolly.

I would not turn your back on the draft at this point. I think there is a bit of dust to settle there.

I agree. Although, not quite the same, the media were talking Daniel Rich up all year and he ended up going at 7 (was it?). A lot can change over the course of 15 or so weeks.

Surely, Jamar is the one that has to go? Meesen has already shown more than Jamar has in his entire career. Jamar's had his time and hasn't been good enough. Pity we don't still have Jolly.

Truth is that none of them are good enough and our rucks are unresolved. FWIW, PJ has played only one serviceable game this year and has not IMO addressed concerns about his game style. Its amazing how the blow torch moves to Jamar. I am no fan of Jamar and know he has limitations. But I reckon one good match and the blowtorch will be back on the others.

What if Jamar gets back to AFL and lo and behold rucks well for the rest of the season.

The extent of Meesen's foot injury raises questions about him which may only be settled closter to year end.

As was Brad Green in his early days. This trait can be learnt and with the size he now has he will hopefully add it to his game. He's young and I haven't written him off just yet.

It's a good point this. Greeny was a little soft in his early days, but now he's one of our most ferocious tacklers and would have no hesitation backing into a pack.

Welching a situation is far different to not impacting a physical presence. Green never welched a contest and certainly was not a frontrunner.

To be honest, I'd say a lot of our guys were front runners. Green wasn''t the only one. I'd stick Brucey in this category at times, as well.

Truth is that none of them are good enough and our rucks are unresolved. FWIW, PJ has played only one serviceable game this year and has not IMO addressed concerns about his game style. Its amazing how the blow torch moves to Jamar. I am no fan of Jamar and know he has limitations. But I reckon one good match and the blowtorch will be back on the others.

What if Jamar gets back to AFL and lo and behold rucks well for the rest of the season.

The extent of Meesen's foot injury raises questions about him which may only be settled closter to year end.

Oh, I agree on PJ. He is one of my favourites, because has done the courageous things in the past (I'd point to the shoulder injury he received on the wing against Sydney a few years back). However, this season he's been dreadful and has struggled to find form. The Eagles game was probably his best game so far, this year. He has great potential, as a second ruck and up forward (the Collingwood game in '07 is an example of what he could do up forward--obviously needs to fix up his kicking for goal though). Persist with PJ, but I still can't believe we traded Jolly and not Jamar.