How many can retire or be delisted?

[Boxy 0]

Patience Grasshopper.

Miller is just coming good

He's still too tall and lanky. He'll grow into his body over the next 2-3 years and may turn out a decent player. We can afford to be patient with him. We have good coaches who are every chance to turn Newts into a solid contributor. No certainty but worth a shot wouldn't you think?

For mine

OUTS: Neitz, Yze, White, Whelan, Weetra, Holland, Bode

TRADES: Wheatley, Bell, Green

I'm all for trading Green and you can add Bruce in as well even though he is one of my favourite players. To be realisitic neither are going to be around for our next crack at a flag and they are about all the value we have to offer. Could get first round picks for them maybe? We all know how critical high picks are this year with the next 3-4 drafts going to be dominated by the new teams.

[Roost It 1,434]

Green trade? Your the Grasshopper.

Green is the only player of real value on our list and he's 27, meaning he's worth something right now, but in 4-5 years time when we're good again, he'll be past it. Now you explain the benefit of keeping him.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Patience Grasshopper.

Miller is just coming good

He's still too tall and lanky. He'll grow into his body over the next 2-3 years and may turn out a decent player. We can afford to be patient with him. We have good coaches who are every chance to turn Newts into a solid contributor. No certainty but worth a shot wouldn't you think?

For mine

OUTS: Neitz, Yze, White, Whelan, Weetra, Holland, Bode

TRADES: Wheatley, Bell, Green

I dont think you can use Miller as a proxy for Newton as they are completely different types of players with different issues to address. For all Miller limitations over the years, work ethic and effort are not part of them. Newton has more natural ability than Miller but his work ethic and effort which have been an issue through his time at MFC is just nowhere near where it should be for AFL. Newton needs to grow into his head more than his body.

You are dreaming if you think a) the Club will readily trade two of its better players this year and one who shows leadership at a time it is lacking and b ) that a bottom club will get away three meaningful trades in trade week. We will be lucky to get one trade away for a straight draft pick and I dont think his name is on your list.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

Green is the only player of real value on our list and he's 27, meaning he's worth something right now, but in 4-5 years time when we're good again, he'll be past it. Now you explain the benefit of keeping him.

To provide on field leadership to the young players coming through.

No use having your entire firsts squad as first, second even third year players

[Roost It 1,434]

I dont think you can use Miller as a proxy for Newton as they are completely different types of players with different issues to address. For all Miller limitations over the years, work ethic and effort are not part of them. Newton has more natural ability than Miller but his work ethic and effort which have been an issue through his time at MFC is just nowhere near where it should be for AFL. Newton needs to grow into his head more than his body.

My point with Miller is it can take time to develop players, Newton at 20-21 needs more time. If we junked every poor performing 20-21 yaer old at the club we'd have no future left. I understand that he appears to have issues regarding work ethic. These issues do need urgent attention and I'm sure the coaches will be working him very hard over summer. All I want for him is more time to develop as a player.

You are dreaming if you think a) the Club will readily trade two of its better players this year and one who shows leadership at a time it is lacking and b ) that a bottom club will get away three meaningful trades in trade week. We will be lucky to get one trade away for a straight draft pick and I dont think his name is on your list.

I realise I'm probably dreaming re: Green and Wheatley. But if you rolled them up and traded them as one you might just get a first or high second round pick, which would be better than keeping them. Wheatley may be one of our better performed players this season, but he will never play in a premeirship side, PERIOD!

As for Bell, the kid can play and we would probably get a high third round pick for him which I would take in a heartbeat.

[H_T 3,043]

Green is the only player of real value on our list and he's 27, meaning he's worth something right now, but in 4-5 years time when we're good again, he'll be past it. Now you explain the benefit of keeping him.

Just because he's 27 and he is worth something right now doesn't mean we should rid of him. The benefits are his leadership and his attack on the ball, as well his goal kicking attributes. Captaincy is not out of the question for next year.

They are the benefits.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

My point with Miller is it can take time to develop players, Newton at 20-21 needs more time. If we junked every poor performing 20-21 yaer old at the club we'd have no future left. I understand that he appears to have issues regarding work ethic. These issues do need urgent attention and I'm sure the coaches will be working him very hard over summer. All I want for him is more time to develop as a player.

I realise I'm probably dreaming re: Green and Wheatley. But if you rolled them up and traded them as one you might just get a first or high second round pick, which would be better than keeping them. Wheatley may be one of our better performed players this season, but he will never play in a premeirship side, PERIOD!

As for Bell, the kid can play and we would probably get a high third round pick for him which I would take in a heartbeat.

While you might get your wish with Newton and he gets another year his attitude issues are personal core matters. Either he wants to play at this level or his does not. As for the Coaches working him hard over the summer. Its not a fitness thing. Its between the ears. And no one is junking every 20-21 year old at the Club.... just the ones who show they either are not good enough or do not have the attitude. FWIW I have seen plenty of younger players who display buckets more attitude and effort than Newton in a month than he has shown in a year.

I agree I think you are dreaming that another team will want both Green and Wheatley and pay what you think. Its a not an issue whether Wheatley will play in a premiership side but whether we can get more for him on the trade table than his worth to the Club by keeping him. Anyway tell Steven Armstrong that! I dont believe Bell is that effective and we should take a 3rd rounder if we can get it for him.

[Roost It 1,434]

Just because he's 27 and he is worth something right now doesn't mean we should rid of him. The benefits are his leadership and his attack on the ball, as well his goal kicking attributes. Captaincy is not out of the question for next year.

They are the benefits.

That doesn't even equal a finals appearance let alone a premiership.

Now tell me some real benefits, ones I care about.

[H_T 3,043]

That doesn't even equal a finals appearance let alone a premiership.

Now tell me some real benefits, ones I care about.

I don't give a rats what you care about. I've outlined the benefits, as have others.

Your in the minority.

IYO it doesn't equal a finals appearance, let alone a premiership? IYO - leave it at that.

[Roost It 1,434]

I don't give a rats what you care about. I've outlined the benefits, as have others.

Your in the minority.

IYO it doesn't equal a finals appearance, let alone a premiership? IYO - leave it at that.

Surely the club should be doing everything possible to gather the best team possible. This will be the last uncomprimised draft for several years. We have some gaping holes that need filling. We need top draft picks. Green is the about the only pleyer, at an age that is right, we have who could snare us a first or high second round pick. We need these picks. You may well be happy making up the numbers in the finals I want a premiership, if that's the minority I'm more than happy in it!

[Ewok 9]

Definite delist/retire: Newton, White, Neitz, Holland, Yze, McDonald.

Possible delist: Carrol, Weetra

Possible trade: Sylvia, Bruce (I don't think we would get enough for either to warrant a trade)

Green should be captain without doubt.

Edit: Just saw McDonald was resigned...

[Eastie Boyz 0]

That doesn't even equal a finals appearance let alone a premiership.

Now tell me some real benefits, ones I care about.

Nor does finishing last equal a finals appearance let alone a premiership.

Everything you're saying is speculative at best.

Who are you to say that with Green's leadership Melbourne can't make finals in 2 years time?

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

This whole debate about draft picks and list management is interesting.

As a side light first, I am amazed at what seem to be venom directed at fellow supporters. Aren't we all on the same side? Sure, agree to disagree, but let's not get nasty.

In relation to list management and draft picks and given that the draft, as of next year, will change to accommodate the "new" interstate teams, it might be worth pondering this.

Sure, the crooks at Carlton are finally reaping the benefit of early draft picks, as are that former - not too long ago - basket case of the RFC. Hawthorn are there abouts as well, of course.

But consider this. When did the reigning premiers seriously bottom out? For that matter, when did Essendon, Collingwood, Bullies and Kangas need to resort to priority draft picks and concessions to remain at least competitve.

Depsite the financial advantage the interstate clubs have, they still have to manage their lists and draft good players. They seem to do that quite well.

In my opinion, a lot has to be said for the staff off the field that manage the list. Our former recuiting manager, Craig Cameron was praised by many, criticised by few, but given the dissatisfaction expressed on this forum about our current crop of players, it would not be hard to form the opinion that Cameron was an abject failure.

Perhaps it's just as well that the feral Tigers have now copped him.

Our list will improve, of that I am certain, with the right managment off the field.

I think we now have the right people in place and Bails will prove to be a master at mentoring young men.

Cheers

[Roost It 1,434]

Nor does finishing last equal a finals appearance let alone a premiership.

Everything you're saying is speculative at best.

Who are you to say that with Green's leadership Melbourne can't make finals in 2 years time?

Finals don't equal premierships, surely the last 21 years have proven that.

[H_T 3,043]

Surely the club should be doing everything possible to gather the best team possible. This will be the last uncomprimised draft for several years. We have some gaping holes that need filling. We need top draft picks. Green is the about the only pleyer, at an age that is right, we have who could snare us a first or high second round pick. We need these picks. You may well be happy making up the numbers in the finals I want a premiership, if that's the minority I'm more than happy in it!

I'm not happy making up the numbers like '04-'05-'06. I want a premiership, and I also would like another first round draft pick between 9 and 16, but I just don't think Green is the answer to that.

I agree that the club should be doing everything possible to gather the best team possible. And I understand about the draft situation and the new teams coming in.

But we need cool heads and look at all options possible, before putting Green on the table. He has lead from the front this season and could well win this years B&F.

Look, we might be able to get another early pick another way.

ie draft picks for draft picks and maybe a player that is worth a 2nd or 3rd round pick in order to get the late 1st round draft pick.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

Finals don't equal premierships, surely the last 21 years have proven that.

Just as tanking and getting rid of all your middle-aged leaders has never won anyone a premiership

[Weedster 174]

Just because he's 27 and he is worth something right now doesn't mean we should rid of him. The benefits are his leadership and his attack on the ball, as well his goal kicking attributes. Captaincy is not out of the question for next year.

They are the benefits.

Hear Hear - some sanity at last..there is an obsession on this site with trading..

Green has been our stand-out best by a mile this year and YES..should be well in the running for captain..

Elsewhere - Sylivia for a 2nd Round pick - What do you think you're going to get ?

And some-one els is suggesting Chris Johnson has upped his trade value - HE'S JUST STARTING TO SHOW WHY HE WAS SO HIGHLY RATED AS JUNIOR...THAT's WHY WE DRAFTED HIM - SPARE ME !

[Chook 15,012]

If Green is captain next year I think I would tear up my membership.

That's absolutely ridiculous! First of all, I'd like to see you "tear up" plastic. I'm pretty sure it's hard to do. Secondly, I'd much prefer Brad Green or Miller than Cameron Bruce.

Wheatley may be one of our better performed players this season, but he will never play in a premeirship side, PERIOD!

Totally disagree. I reckon that Paul Wheatley would be one of the few on our list that would push a contenting side to Premiership status. His unaccountable, attacking style would be highly sought after in a defensive side that views one of its weaknesses as lack of attacking ability on the rebound.

But you're right. Wheaters won't play in a Premiership - unless he's traded. But that's not because he's not good enough - a view which I think is bull anyway (so many crap players have played in Premierships. Rather, it's because the players currently around him aren't good enough to compensate for his weaknesses. Paul Wheatley brings enormous benefits to his team, with obvious drawbacks that a good defensive side would be able to cover for.

I also think that Paul Wheatley, Cameron Bruce and Brad Green are all highly rated outside the Demons - and that they would all fetch great prices at the right clubs. In my opinion, Wheatley at Adelaide, Bruce at Geelong, and Green at Sydney would all become All-Australians because of the way they'd play within the teams.

[rusty_kingswood 0]

If Green is captain next year I think I would tear up my membership. You can't be serious?

Well then youre a nob head! Green by a long shot is our best player this year, and the player most appropriate to take us forward!

Have you been watching the football recently? Have you noticed his work rate? Have you seen him at training?? He has worked hard this year, and deserves to leaad the dees.

Tear up your membership???????

[52k2 0]

To expand on the idea of how about Jeff White, Syliva and pick 18 or 19[whichever we get] for a pick around 7-10?

When the final siren goes after rd 22 our real season has just begun. Its then time to get super aggressive at the trade and draft tables.

[Roost It 1,434]

Just as tanking and getting rid of all your middle-aged leaders has never won anyone a premiership

If you look back at any of the premeirship sides of the last 10 years, they have all traded to win premeirships, whether it be for players or draft picks.

If Hawthorn win a premeirship your first statement will also turn out to be wrong.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

No, because Hawthorn kept Vandenberg, Crawf, Mitchell, Everitt , Osborne and a couple of others.

All of who were consolidated players (though Mitchell was just starting to reach that mark) and were kept to help lead the next batch of players (Hodge, Lewis, Buddy, Roughie) towards their next premiership.

The same could be said of Geelong. Do you think they'd be half as good if they turfed King, Scarlett, Harley, Millburn, Wojcinski etc in the years where they picked up Ablett and Bartel?

[Devoted Demon 0]

Can anyone tell me where Newton is in contract terms. I was at the game the on the weekend and I was appalled when he went to go for a mark and looked scared of course missed it but he looked seriously scared. I had a bit of respect for this guy in the begining of the year still thought maybe he might get better but was disapointed on the weekend.

[Key Deefender 143]

There has to be a careful balance between youth and experience. We can cleanout anyone over a certain age if we wish, but there has to be the core leadership and experience to hopefully show the way. James McDonald has just re-signed for a year to emphasise that point.

Here's my view on our older brigade to either keep, trade or retire.

One of our biggest problems this year has been turnovers. Within reason I would not be looking to trade anyone who can mainly hit a target or offer something postively unique to the team. To that end, I would happily trade Bell and Bruce who have been around long enough to improve to their capacity. I think for both that capacity has now waned. Both may have some trade value, particularly Bruce. I think Adelaide have always like Bell, maybe they still do.

For the same reasons I would keep Green and Wheatley. Green because he can hit targets/kick goals regularly, but also because he has demonstrated tremendous leadership onfield to come back from the pre-season demotion from the leadership group. He would be my captain next year, perhaps co-captained with Miller or have Miller as his deputy. Wheatley can certainly turn over the ball, but he can also hit long targets. He would also be my preferred designated kicker from behinds, he can play tall or short and has deceptive speed. Probably having his best season and I believe he is a very good clubman. Worth more to us than anything on the trade table at Round 3 tops.

Whelan I had written off mid season, however I think now he can mentor some of the younger defenders as well the young indigenous players, as he is proving, injury free, he still has some good football left.

Yze, White and Holland have been great mentors and servants but their time has come.

Robbo is an interesting one. He is contracted for next year, and with his injury is worth nothing at the trade table. His recovery level is in some doubt, however he is the best clubman we have and in many ways, of the players, the face of the club with his media profile. He needs the chance and opportunity to recover but his best playing days are behind him now. If he can't recover to the level he wants he may pull the pin some time next season. If he can, then good luck to him.

Of the other main contenders for trade on these forums, Sylvia and Newton, I would give each one more season, barring a trade offer reasonably exceeding their worth.

Sylvia disappoints but still has never done a full pre-season. A good side needs a mid sized robust forward and he could be the next Robbo. He has all the attributes, spring, athleticism, a big mark and kick- albeit erratic at present - and can take turns at different parts of the ground. If let go, he could seriously come back to bite us. An injury free run is hopefully all he needs.

Newton is not dissimilar in some ways but many tend to forget he has around ten senior games to his credit. Big forwards are more of an investment in time and while I think he is immature of mind as much as body, he needs another, hopefully injury free, season to demonstrate he is worth hanging onto. With Neitz gone, Robbo in limbo, Miller and Bate required perhaps further upfield at times, there is really no one else to groom at this point. Watts or someone else may come along but they will be 2-3 years behind in development anyway. The ball into the forward line has been so bad I would challenge any big inexperienced forward to look good.

[tooly 0]

What would be the best pick in the draft if we

gave away pick 17-18?

We wont, but whats it worth.

eg. Kerr and pick 19 or 20?