Anyone for cricket?

[Cards13 9,117]

Or it could be Watson dropped and Agar comes in, keep the 3 quicks and add a 2nd spinner. I just hope Harris is fit to play he looked sore at the end.

Can't believe the negativity in the reporting from the Age this morning. Saying a soft declaration, not enough over, why gift Marsh a 100.

I thought for a match played in that flat a wicket to have a contest into day 5 was a great achievement. They forgot to mention the rain delays causing list time.

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Yeah I agree, I thought the reporting on the match was pretty negative.

If Smith have of declared early and set India 340 off 80 odd overs and India chased them down he'd be howled down for an unnecessary declaration. I thought he should have declared maybe 6 overs earlier, but end of the day we don't owe India anything and we didn't need to win this test match in order to claim the series. India are the ones who needed to make the running and they opened the day with a defensive field.

[Cards13 9,117]

Agree TD they lost the series for Christ sake.

[dee-luded 2,958]

I wonder if Agar is in line for Burns spot,,, sorry for mitch Marsh's spot. Burns has had a taste & maybe needs to go back to work on his game.

maybe Agar needs a hitout at Inter' level prior to the World Cup. & at the same time help to shape Lyon up a little?

[gsmith12 491]

I wonder if Agar is in line for Burns spot,,, sorry for mitch Marsh's spot. Burns has had a taste & maybe needs to go back to work on his game.

maybe Agar needs a hitout at Inter' level prior to the World Cup. & at the same time help to shape Lyon up a little?

Apart from the sensational 98 that Ashton made in England in 2013 he has done bugger all with the bat whereas Burns has been prolific for Qld batting as an opener or at three.

Absolutely no comparison.

[Cards13 9,117]

Would be amazed if burns goes our

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Yeah Burns would be very hard done by to get dropped after 1 test.

I'm thinking he's in purely as cover in case it's a turner. Then they may rest Harris with the Windies & Ashes tours in mind, or maybe even Johnson given there's still the tri series & World Cup ahead. Ease the work load on him maybe given the series is won.

[gsmith12 491]

Seems odd, New Year's day and no cricket.

[Whispering_Jack 28,118]

Seems odd, New Year's day and no cricket.

Not even BBL Smithy?

[gsmith12 491]

Not even BBL Smithy?

Not a fan Jack although I watch because the Grandkids love it.

Trying to help coach good technique to a 12 and 9 year old in the Big Bash climate is a nightmare.

[gsmith12 491]

Tweeted by Rodney Hogg and food for thought !

Fawad 18 wickets @ 30

Boyce 8 wickets @ 35

Agar 7 wickets @ 45

[Cards13 9,117]

Fawad is unlucky.

[45HG 1,539]

How can you put in Agar instead of Ahmed?

Apart from being a lesser bowler, there was a fair amount of effort put in to getting Ahmed eligibility and they haven't even played him! Would've thought a turning pitch would've been right up his alley.

[Macca 16,174]

Tweeted by Rodney Hogg and food for thought !

Fawad 18 wickets @ 30

Boyce 8 wickets @ 35

Agar 7 wickets @ 45

They'll be looking at Agar's all round ability ... the 5th bowler who can bat at no.6 or no.7

Currently it's Watson but he bats at no.3 ... would be Mitch Marsh but he's injured. Other candidates are Faulkner & Maxwell.

We need a 5th bowler because our front 4 aren't Lee, McGrath, Gillespie & Warne ... Lyon can be got at and our quicks have had their injury issues (including the odd quick breaking down in a game)

Agar shouldn't necessarily be looked at as the 2nd spinner - more like the back-up spinner/5th bowler.

[MadAsHell 4,089]

They'll be looking at Agar's all round ability ... the 5th bowler who can bat at no.6 or no.7

Currently it's Watson but he bats at no.3 ... would be Mitch Marsh but he's injured. Other candidates are Faulkner & Maxwell.

We need a 5th bowler because our front 4 aren't Lee, McGrath, Gillespie & Warne ... Lyon can be got at and our quicks have had their injury issues (including the odd quick breaking down in a game)

Agar shouldn't necessarily be looked at as the 2nd spinner - more like the back-up spinner/5th bowler.

Or what was the superior IMO, McGrath, Fleming, Gillespie & Warne.

But your right, I think the day of us playing 6 specialist batsmen & 4 bowlers is over unless we manage to land another McGrath/Warne type combo, which is once in a lifetime type stuff. A batman who can bowl at least 10-15 overs+ a day is now necessary, and I think is one of the things we've had over India in this current series.

[Macca 16,174]

Or what was the superior IMO, McGrath, Fleming, Gillespie & Warne.

But your right, I think the day of us playing 6 specialist batsmen & 4 bowlers is over unless we manage to land another McGrath/Warne type combo, which is once in a lifetime type stuff. A batman who can bowl at least 10-15 overs+ a day is now necessary, and I think is one of the things we've had over India in this current series.

Lee was an absolute gun in his prime ... his ability to bowl express pace was underrated. The opposition would have had him on their minds constantly - a genuine fear factor.

Like most genuinely quick bowlers he created wickets at the other end. He also did happen to pick up 300 odd wickets himself ... I've never understood why many didn't rate him highly - his critics couldn't see the intangibles that Lee brought to the sport. I suspect that's the main reason he gets marked down.

We've nearly always had half decent 5th and 6th bowlers ... not genuine all rounder types but Steve and Mark Waugh were more than handy ... Greg Chappell, Border and various others could more than play their role as back-up bowlers.

Agar has just turned 21 - he should be judged in 3-4 years time when he's had a lot more exposure. Right now, he's a young up and comer who is more a batsman than a bowler ... he's got plenty of time to develop all areas of his game.

I like the selection. It's not often the selectors get a chance to invest in the future with a speculative pick. Now is the time ... I might also add that we'll have that same opportunity when we go to the West Indies in May/June next year.

[Macca 16,174]

I reckon even AB would be still surprised at his match figures in this particular match ... Australia vs West Indies 4th Test 1988/89 ... not too shabby for a left arm trundler! (7/46 in the first dig)

We touched on it the other day about the drop-in wickets ... the SCG wicket was often renowned as a "turner" but it's not looked upon in the same way these days ... in that particular game (above) we picked 4 front line bowlers (including 2 spinners) and 2 of our batsmen were players who often bowled in our games (S Waugh & Border)

The other thing to consider is that the bowling of Warner & Smith hasn't really come on.

[gsmith12 491]

Agar has batted 5 times this season in the Shield for an aggregate of 130 runs and an average of 26, combined with his bowling results of 7 victims @ 45 a piece, hardly inspiring is it ?

If this sort of form earns you a Test recall the cupboard must be bare.

[Macca 16,174]

Agar has batted 5 times this season in the Shield for an aggregate of 130 runs and an average of 26, combined with his bowling results of 7 victims @ 45 a piece, hardly inspiring is it ?

If this sort of form earns you a Test recall the cupboard must be bare.

It's a speculative pick Smithy ... treat is as such and the merit can be seen.

We've done so in the past with spectacular results ... Warne, Border and S Waugh hadn't done very much at all before they were picked for Australia ... now, I'm not for a minute putting Agar in the same category of those 3 players but I can't see what the issue is.

This "banging down the door" stuff is pure rubbish if we were to completely analyse the way our players have advanced to the test side throughout history ... I even heard Border say it the other day.

Honestly, when Border was first picked it was Allan who? Our memory plays tricks with us.

Even Bradman hadn't done a great deal before he first got picked ... so much so that he batted at no.7 in his first test and then was promptly dropped ... if they knew he was going to average 99.94 throughout his career then why bat him so low and why drop him after 1 test?

The truth is that he was a speculative pick (like most of our other greats have been)

We shouldn't be at all concerned about giving some of our young blokes a go (especially in a dead rubber) If we took the same attitude in footy then when would the stars be first picked? When they're 25?

Greg Chappell said it best ... "You learn how to play test cricket by playing test cricket" ... Chappell would know.

[gsmith12 491]

It's a speculative pick Smithy ... treat is as such and the merit can be seen.

We've done so in the past with spectacular results ... Warne, Border and S Waugh hadn't done very much at all before they were picked for Australia ... now, I'm not for a minute putting Agar in the same category of those 3 players but I can't see what the issue is.

This "banging down the door" stuff is pure rubbish if we were to completely analyse the way our players have advanced to the test side throughout history ... I even heard Border say it the other day.

Honestly, when Border was first picked it was Allan who? Our memory plays tricks with us.

Even Bradman hadn't done a great deal before he first got picked ... so much so that he batted at no.7 in his first test and then was promptly dropped ... if they knew he was going to average 99.94 throughout his career then why bat him so low and why drop him after 1 test?

The truth is that he was a speculative pick (like most of our other greats have been)

We shouldn't be at all concerned about giving some of our young blokes a go (especially in a dead rubber) If we took the same attitude in footy then when would the stars be first picked? When they're 25?

Greg Chappell said it best ... "You learn how to play test cricket by playing test cricket" ... Chappell would know.

Don't disagree with your sentiments Macca and the selection sure is out of left field.

Wonder how Ahmed feels.

BTW what has happened to Jimmy Muirhead ?

[Macca 16,174]

Don't disagree with your sentiments Macca and the selection sure is out of left field.

Wonder how Ahmed feels.

BTW what has happened to Jimmy Muirhead ?

I somewhat agree with you re Ahmed but Lyon has done too well to be rested or dropped. Boyce, Muirhead and a couple of others have merit as well but we don't often pick 2 front line spinners at home these days. I see Agar as more of an all rounder right now - not a great one but who is great? Mitch Marsh would almost certainly be playing if he was fit but would we have Watson in the same team as well?

I honestly believe the selectors are looking at improving the depth of our bowling within the side ... we'll get an indication of that if Agar does play in the match.

My guess is that he may not play ... but, if he does play then Burns will probably make way. That might seem harsh but I'm thinking it's just for this particular test. Also, we've got a world cup coming up and then we go to the West Indies where the wickets have more recently offered a bit for the spinners. Agar could bat in the Sydney test behind Haddin in that scenario (no.7)

It might also be Watson who makes way but we're in a bit of a bind with the no.3 batting spot. Burns or Marsh could bat in that spot but they do seem to want to persevere with Watson at 3.

My "speculative" eleven ...

Rogers

Warner

Watson

Smith

S Marsh

Haddin

Agar

Johnson

Harris

Lyon

Hazlewood

In an ideal world I'd rest Johnson & Harris (Starc & Siddle are both in the squad so at least one of Johnson or Harris might be rested)

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Lee was an absolute gun in his prime ... his ability to bowl express pace was underrated. The opposition would have had him on their minds constantly - a genuine fear factor.

Like most genuinely quick bowlers he created wickets at the other end. He also did happen to pick up 300 odd wickets himself ... I've never understood why many didn't rate him highly - his critics couldn't see the intangibles that Lee brought to the sport. I suspect that's the main reason he gets marked down.

We've nearly always had half decent 5th and 6th bowlers ... not genuine all rounder types but Steve and Mark Waugh were more than handy ... Greg Chappell, Border and various others could more than play their role as back-up bowlers.

Agar has just turned 21 - he should be judged in 3-4 years time when he's had a lot more exposure. Right now, he's a young up and comer who is more a batsman than a bowler ... he's got plenty of time to develop all areas of his game.

I like the selection. It's not often the selectors get a chance to invest in the future with a speculative pick. Now is the time ... I might also add that we'll have that same opportunity when we go to the West Indies in May/June next year.

Not saying Lee was a bad bowler, far from it. But I always felt he was played well ahead of his time and was nursed through periods of under performance where others players wouldn't have because of his ability to bowl fast. I refer to the 2001 Ashes series as an example, where Fleming was cooling his ankles the whole time. The extra tests he received in my opinion no doubt allowed him to reach 300 wickets. For the 4th highest Australian Wicket taker, you have to go down to our 24th highest (Nathan Lyon) to find one with a worse bowling average. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/australia/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=1;id=2;type=team

Damien Fleming on the other hand was our last genuine world class swing bowler who was sadly cut down by injuries and Lee's fast tracking. 75 wickets in 20 tests @ 25.89 with an economy rate of 2.82. Was one of my favourites.

But I agree that a 5th bowler in now required in our team. One of Watson, Marsh, Agar, Faulkner, Maxwell or Stoinis will always be in the mix IMO from here on in.

Don't disagree with your sentiments Macca and the selection sure is out of left field.

Wonder how Ahmed feels.

BTW what has happened to Jimmy Muirhead ?

Yeah Fawad has every right to feel hard done by, especially if Agar is picked as a specialist bowler and not a spinning all rounder. Fawad is clearly the 2nd best spinner in the country.

As for Muirhead he lost his way at club cricket level to start the season, and has only taken 5 wickets in his openning three 2 day matches @35, but in the One Dayers took 10 wickets in 5 matches @ 22.40. He's playing with the Scorchers in the BBL, and from all reports he's getting his groove back. He's got Fawad & John Holland as competition in Victoria. He'd almost be better looking at moving to Tassie to break into their Shield team. But the competition here is probably good for him.

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Not saying Lee was a bad bowler, far from it. But I always felt he was played well ahead of his time and was nursed through periods of under performance where others players wouldn't have because of his ability to bowl fast. I refer to the 2001 Ashes series as an example, where Fleming was cooling his ankles the whole time.

Found his stats from that tour for those interested. 9 wickets in 5 tests @55.11 with an economy rate of over 4 isn't pretty reading.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2001/AUS_IN_ENG/STATS/AUS_IN_ENG_2001_TEST_AVS.html

[Macca 16,174]

Found his stats from that tour for those interested. 9 wickets in 5 tests @55.11 with an economy rate of over 4 isn't pretty reading.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2001/AUS_IN_ENG/STATS/AUS_IN_ENG_2001_TEST_AVS.html

Yeah, well ... in Warne's first 2 series he took a total of 4 wickets for 386. We should have turfed Shane out there and then ... well, those without any patience might have.

Your view on Lee is a popular one but it's not one I share - our best bowlers can't all be DK Lillee/McGrath like.

I watched Lee live and in my opinion he was a top player. Contrarily, I sometimes feel for the best batsmen whose average is often compared to Bradman's. It's unfair because the Don was right out there on his own.

By the way, even Bradman had a poor series or 2 (by his own standards)

Not saying Lee was a bad bowler, far from it. But I always felt he was played well ahead of his time and was nursed through periods of under performance where others players wouldn't have because of his ability to bowl fast. I refer to the 2001 Ashes series as an example, where Fleming was cooling his ankles the whole time. The extra tests he received in my opinion no doubt allowed him to reach 300 wickets. For the 4th highest Australian Wicket taker, you have to go down to our 24th highest (Nathan Lyon) to find one with a worse bowling average. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/australia/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=1;id=2;type=team

Damien Fleming on the other hand was our last genuine world class swing bowler who was sadly cut down by injuries and Lee's fast tracking. 75 wickets in 20 tests @ 25.89 with an economy rate of 2.82. Was one of my favourites.

But I agree that a 5th bowler in now required in our team. One of Watson, Marsh, Agar, Faulkner, Maxwell or Stoinis will always be in the mix IMO from here on in.

Yeah Fawad has every right to feel hard done by, especially if Agar is picked as a specialist bowler and not a spinning all rounder. Fawad is clearly the 2nd best spinner in the country.

As for Muirhead he lost his way at club cricket level to start the season, and has only taken 5 wickets in his openning three 2 day matches @35, but in the One Dayers took 10 wickets in 5 matches @ 22.40. He's playing with the Scorchers in the BBL, and from all reports he's getting his groove back. He's got Fawad & John Holland as competition in Victoria. He'd almost be better looking at moving to Tassie to break into their Shield team. But the competition here is probably good for him.

The bit I've highlighted can't be underestimated. He was better than just being a genuine quick anyway.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one TD - I don't believe that there were too many batsmen around the world who relished facing him for that 6-7 year period. He softened them up nicely for McGrath, Gillespie, Warne et al.

I'd agree that he's certainly not an all time great but that's not what I'm arguing. My argument would be somewhat similar for McDermott (another player who gets unfairly maligned because he wasn't "great")

Warne was a miles better bowler than his average indicates too - averages aren't everything. Aggregates are often a better indication - not always, but 708 wickets is 708 wickets (Warne's bowling average was 25.41)

Re Stoinis ... hadn't realised that he also bowls a bit of medium pace - don't know much about him but I find it interesting that he's made his way to Victoria after making his debut for WA (when he was just 19) Bats in the top 3 as well ... one to watch?

Edited January 1, 2015 by Macca

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Yeah think we can agree to that Macca. And don't get me wrong, I don't think Lee was no good, I just didn't rate him as high as some others.

Yeah Stoinis is a very promising young player, injured at the moment unfortunatly as I understand it.

He's in the top 5 run scorers in the Shield so far this season with 399 runs @ 66.50 with 4 50's (top score of 99). He's batted top 3 the whole season so far, opened in his last match.

He's also taken 3 wickets @ 56.33 which isn't anything spectacular, but it's more then Nathan Lyon has for NSW and equal with the likes of Josh Hazlewood, Jackson Bird, Xavier Doherty & Ben Cutting. Pretty sure he even opened the bowling (into the wind) in Victoria's Shield match against NSW.