Hannabal

I fear that we waste our efforts on those that eschew realistic appraisals and lack the comprehension to evaluate what's put before them. As you say, those that have the temerity to highlight where Watts needs to improve are not (in the main) "writing him off", "bashing him", and nor are they incapable of recognising some of his sublime traits. These great protectors of young Jack would have others believe that they are indeed the true believers and that 'the doubters' are either blind, impatient, or have some misguided agenda. You can almost hear them yelling from the rafters "I told you so" when he realises his preordained fate. But what's their real legacy ? Yes, of course, they pointed out that any present deficiencies were expected traits of a basketball trained, skinny teenager, needing more beef and that he'll prove the doubters wrong. Bravo ! Acute insight there. As you know, the "write him off at your peril" brigade only highlight their lack of understanding of the game and the ability to rationalise the communications of others. And when asked to name these "bashers" and provide the offending quotes they can't. So, to make it clear and obvious, Watts has talent that one rarely sees. The club saw it, I saw it, most supporters see it now, or also saw it pre-draft. He has soft aspects to his game that are not the sole legacy of basketball and he needs to work hard to eradicate them if he's to fulfill his undoubted natural ability and become the star he can be. Phew ! # Bob, he's been timid in high marking contests in a few AFL games, a case in point the last game (one handed marking effort), as well as games for Casey. A Casey reference of mine can be found by a search on here.

I'm not suggesting to you that he doesn't have basketball elements in his game, I'm suggesting to you that he's soft in pack/high marking contests. He flies in a half hearted and timid fashion. Granted, opening ones front, knowing what might ensue, is one of the hardest things to do on a footy field. His nervousness in those situations stands out like a beacon. It has nothing to do with basketball. Young skinny Fyfe of Freo, a first year player, already shows great courage in marking contests. It too stands out like a beacon. It doesn't come easily to Jack. It does to some. He needs good coaching and a great preseason.

Lame. A cop out. If you make ill-considered accusations you need to be prepared to back them up. Provide the names and quotes that offend you so.

Nah, that's the easy part. Just as easy as dispelling the "explanations" that gather momentum on here.

Name the "bashers" and quote what they've said that perturbs you.

I agree - it's a crock. It's a great excuse for Melbourne supporters that spend their lives making excuses for Melbourne footballers. Watts made the under 12 state Victorian team with Scully. If you go down to the East Sandringham Football Club you'll see Watts' name appear about 4 times on the Best & Fairest honour board. He's not some novice that has suddenly had an oval ball thrust into his hands. Here are some snippets from an article in 2008. "Watts, 17, is the classic schoolboy superstar. From the age of eight when he joined the East Sandringham Junior Football Club, to the cusp of being taken with the No. 1 pick in the national draft, Watts has wowed all who have seen him." "Watts' dominance of junior football was so immediate, talent scouts started hearing about him from nine years of age." "A glance at the East Sandringham Junior Football Club honour board shows a long diagonal row of Jack Watts best-and-fairest engravings". Yes, he played lots and lots of basketball, but he's no novice to football. With good coaching he'll understand that he needs to develop more of an appetite for the contest. Supporters need to stop using basketball as a convenient excuse. There have been players that have avoided body contact for time immemorial and I'm sure most of them never threw a basketball competitively. Sometimes it's smart to avoid it, sometimes it's imperative to encounter it, and sometimes you just need to be seen doing it - for your teammates. With more experience and good coaching Jack will learn those moments. But right now he plays soft footy, so cut the spin. I've had enough from Gillard over the last 4 weeks to last me a lifetime.

It had nothing to do with being soft.

I've made the following distinction before; soft doesn't necessarily equal lacking courage and courage doesn't necessarily mean hard. Green has tremendous courage, but he's not hard (and obviously, nor is he soft). Watts plays soft footy. It doesn't mean that he will always play soft footy, or that there aren't mitigating circumstances explaining why, but he unquestionably plays soft footy. Going for a high mark one handed is just one case in point.

James McDonald never went to Xavier, he just played for Old Xavs. And Scully isn't a great example of a PS boy. He got a footy scholarship which enabled him to go to Haileybury, but his footy persona was well and truly set, it wasn't moulded by the PS system.

Luke Ball went to Xavier and always puts his head over the ball. But I know where Jmac is coming from. They have different junior programs that don't always expose them to the right coaching.

Gee this term "haters" is over done. Many opposition supporters want to see him fail, but all Melbourne supporters hope he succeeds for obvious reasons. He's a soft footballer still coming to grips with AFL footy. He doesn't lack courage, but he's most definately soft, which is why he flew for that mark one handed. When the ball is on the ground he can look like he's committing 100%, but it takes a lot more courage flying for a mark with two arms in the air. His natural instinct is to protect his body. Yze played 250 games flying for marks with one arm. Let's hope Watts has great coaching to ensure he puts his body on the line more than he currently does. And I'm sure he will. Soft players also get found out more in wet conditions. He needs a big preseason. I'm sure we'll see a bigger and more confident player next year.

Do you mean Rhino ? What a timely post/

No worries. If people didn't make silly comments my job would be a lot easier.

Which is at odds with your original statement.

No doubt your eyes didn't deceive you, but nor does it mean that Frawley won't be playing.

Your ability to decipher plain messages is gobsmackingly poor. I've said that I wouldn't get rid of Jones. I've said that he'll play 150+ games of AFL footy. I've said that if the sun and moon aligned he may play in a premiership team - but it's doubtful. What I've done is say that he'll never be a premium, or A grade midfielder and that when we're realistically challenging for a flag he'll be a fringe player. How is that "writing him off" ? It's a realistic assessment of his capabilities. His 5th year is inferior to Scully's first. Now I accept that Scully is an exceptional player and I reckon he'll be a star of the game, but it also speaks volumes of Jones ability as a midfielder. Get used to these sorts of discussions re Jones, because when he's in and out of the team over the next couple of years you'll be having lots more of them and ultimately you'll be left scratching your head.

Where have I written Jones off ? I said that I'd keep him, but I see him being a fringe player when we're challenging. Jones will never be an A grader. He doesn't have the skill, reflexes, or decision making. There's not one aspect of the game where he's elite. The beauty about posting our views on a public forum is that we'll be able to revisit a thread like this - even if we are somewhat anonymous . If I'm proven to be wrong I'll put my hand up. Time will tell. Others are forgetting how good Sewell was 2-3 years ago. The stats are no reflection of his importance. Though I note that the rating points for both weren't included in the stats provided. It gives a better feeling for the overall difference. I didn't include this year because Sewell has been way off and like Jones was dropped before a late change gave him a reprieve. http://www.finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare.asp?SeasonID=2009&PlayerName1=&PlayerName2=&PlayerName3=&PlayerName4=&Compare=Add+to+Comparison&SelectedPlayers=1363%2C1676%2C I agree that Sewell isn't an A grader. But he most definately had a couple of A grade years when it counted. Just like Pendlebury, Swan, Dale Thomas, Didak and arguably Wellingham are having A grade years rotating through the midfield for Collingwood. If Jones has been so good this year, why do you think he was dropped ? Surely even for you the alarm bells must be ringing. Btw, I haven't changed my tune on anything.

Sewell isn't an A grader this year, but he has had A grade years. Sewell's best years are a mile ahead of Jones.

[censored], if you're going to edit my posts at least make them sound believable.

I tried to break it down for you so that it may have been easier to understand. I realised that my statement could be construed as too broad, hence the clarification. Clearly, I either over-estimated my capabilities to communicate, or yours to understand. Premium mids = A graders * - not necessarily "elite" midfielders. A player may have an A grade year, but it doesn't mean that they play at A grade level year in, year out. As an example, Medhurst had an A grade year for Collingwood when he made AA as a forward, but now he can't even make the team. Elite players are elite for the majority of their career. By nature, they're the best of the best. Virtually no club has ever had 5 elite mids at any one time, but 4-5 premium mids is achievable and desirable to win a flag. The game has changed so much in the last 8-10 years it's extraordinary. It's changed so much since 2007 that it's hardly worthwhile mentioning the last 8-10 years. Brisbane and Geelong have won 6 of the last 9 flags, so two thirds of those flags had 5 premiums. Corey was indeed an A grade mid in their flag years. It's laughable for you to suggest he wasn't. He's won 2 Best & Fairests and twice been AA. Obviously there's no hard and fast rule when it comes to winning a flag. The formula won't be the same for every club every year. Hawthorn had a number of A grade mids (Mitchell, Crawford, Sewell), but they also had Franklin with a freak year and a star in Hodge. Considering that most games are won in the middle and considering that I want us to win not just one flag, but have a period of domination, it's reasonable to suggest that we need to assemble 5 premium (A grade) mids, including stars, to orchestrate what most crave. Jones isn't an A grader, i.e. "premium", and never will be. He does nothing exceptionally well. He's no half forward and others are well ahead for that position. He's not creative by hand, or foot. Marking isn't a strength, although he's fine for his height. His pace is ok, but not elite. He tries his guts out and does most things adequately. This is just a realistic assessment of him as a footballer. Morton will become an A grader once he improves the defensive side of his game. I'll back my judgment on Blease and Gysberts. I don't consider it guesswork. They don't have exposed form, so it's an easy argument to dismiss them, but I've seen enough to be comfortable with my assessment. Clearly it's the club's too. I need to see more of Tapscott. I didn't mention Strauss, because while the talent is evident the intensity is woeful. I've put a line through him and I suggest he was a poor pick. If I'm wrong, fantastic. Each year 30-35 very good players leave the game. It happened last year, the year before and it will happen this year. Watch the GF parade every year. Very good players get replaced through the draft each year. We've had excellent draft picks the last few years and having seen most of them play at junior level and subsequently Casey, I see no reason why the players I've mentioned won't become very good AFL players with the right development. In fact, we're the envy of the competition with the list we're building. Naturally, I realise that there are no guarantees, which is why I used to lambast Daniher for not turning the list over nearly enough. He let the ordinary hang around. Btw, I don't get enthused for every young Melb footballer I see. Far from it. I wanted us to use pick 12 on Jones prior to drafting him. Many here will remember that I was very pro Nathan Jones. I had private corrsepondence from CAC at the time saying that he really liked him too and that he was in the mix. I was rapt when I heard his name called out on draft day. He's ultimately become a good player, but down the track I recognise that at best he'll be a fringe player if we're to become a premiership quality side. Finally, there's nothing "low" by what I said about Jones. It's called an opinion. #It's all about winning flags, Turbo# * I agree that there's obviously subjectivity when it comes to classifying A graders.

Paul Connors was Watts' manager. Has this changed ? He may have a female working for him, in fact, I know he did at one point. If Paul still manages Watts I very much doubt that anyone other than Paul would be doing the negotiations.

A couple of things. I said that Gysberts, Tapscott and Blease have more variety than Jones as footballers. Yes, it does predispose that I believe they'll become very good AFL players, but I'll back my judgment and the club's that they will. You don't need to see a player run out in 50 league games to know the type of player they'll be. Most knew that Scully and Trengove would be guns before they'd played a game. Gysberts is a very smart footballer and at his size adds versatility. He can play inside or out. I've seen Blease play at junior level and have seen him live at Casey seconds and I reckon he'll become a really good AFL player. He's a great kick, nice size and has elite pace. I haven't seen as much of Tapscott, even though I saw him play juniors, but he's a superb kick and can play midfield, half forward, or half back. Automatically they have more strings to their bow than Jones. Now whether they ultimately make it, or not, in no way changes their player characteristcs, which was the essence of my point. For me, a rotating midfielder of premiership quality, even if he isn't premium quality, needs to be able to play well in other areas of the ground. Jones will play 150+ games of AFL football. He'll have a good career. But that doesn't mean he'll be pivotal in a premiership team. And with his limitations a club on the horizon of a premiership will need better premium midfielders. I analyse not what he brings to the table now, but his worth when we're a serious challenger. As we develop, when Jones isn't on the ball he'll be on the bench. Now that may be OK on some occasions, but it will always put him on the fringe of selection. If the stars and moon align Jones may well play in a premiership side, as clubs usually have 26, or so, players to choose from when running into the finals, so it's up to him to keep himself relevant. I know he'll give his all. It may not be enough.

I have different classifications for midfelders. I look at the very best teams, premiership teams, as having 5 premium midfielders and up to a dozen that rotate through the midfield at some stage. Geelong have had Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Corey and Chapman. I see Bail as a rotating mid not unlike Wojinski at Geelong, who plays off half back, but regularly pushes through the middle. Jones isn't good enough to be an engine room mid, i.e. he won't be a top 5 premiership premium mid. Unlike you and some others, I don't think that he has the versatility, or tricks to play in other positions terribly well. Someone like Bail can have a stint in the middle due to his great pace, hardness and penetrating kicking, yet he can also play half forward or half back. He's also a really good mark for his size. He has variety that Jones doesn't. Morton, Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease have variety that Jones doesn't. The key ingredient is getting 5 premium mids, a sound support group that has versatility, a great defence and an array of quality goal kickers. I believe that the talent is predominantly already on the list, just not yet in the mode of development that it needs to be. I don't see Jones as an integral part of that mixture down the track, more as depth. Jones is a boom or bust mid in that if he's not one of your starting on-ballers he's half way out the door. For me, he's really no good anywhere else. You start trying to create a position for him such as a tagger. It doesn't work for me. I hope this better clarifies my views. It's not as simple as "would he get a game with Geelong ?". It's as much to do with structure.

I've discounted most of the midfield right now because to not do so would be patently stupid. I discounted most of the midfield right now because most wouldn't get regular games at a bench mark club like Geelong. Clearly we're not a premiership threat right now. Clearly we're building a list with flags as the clear goal. Clearly I believe that to ultimately win a flag we'll need to be represented by better midfielders than Jones. Clearly we may not win a flag, but we need to aspire too. Clearly Jones would get a game at lots of clubs, but lots of clubs don't win flags. I didn't advocate getting rid of him, just that I see him becoming a depth player in the not too distant future. Moloney is border line good enough to play in a premiership, but I put him ahead of Jones. Grimes will gravitate to the midfield in time, or at least take turns in there. Morton is a 193/194cm utility that will rotate through the middle/wing. I rate Bail highly and ahead of Jones moving forward. McKenzie needs to improve, but he's come a long way in a short time. Will he become better than Jones ? Too early to tell. There's enough depth capable of running through the middle, but to win a flag we need to unearth some stars. We need Scully, Trengove, and Watts to become stars. We won't win any flag unless some players develop in to all time greats of the game and the MFC. They were recruited to be stars and I think they can be. As for being delusional ? If you don't believe that we can build a premiership list then I don't know what you're doing here. And if you do believe that we can build a premiership list then why would you say that I'm being delusional ? Perhaps you can quote the delusional aspects of my posts for me ? Thanks.

Silly comment. If Dunn keeps playing like he has in the second half of the year then he'll keep people off his back. Col Sylvia was interviewed on the radio for his 100th game and he stated that a lot of Dunn's teammates didn't think he was best 22 at the start of the year, so it seems like his teammates "hated" him too. There's no doubt that he does have an uncanny ability to do some special things. And his kicking is more accurate with his newly found arc. He needs to keep it going. He's averaged a couple of goals a game over the last 8 weeks, which has been great. If he can become a 40-50 goal per year forward he's worth his weight in gold.