DeeSpencer

Because largely our shuffle involves players that need shuffling. Pedersen and Sellar shuffling who cares. Gawn and Fitzpatrick each spending a few weeks in AFL then a few weeks in VFL how is that bad development. Same for Kent. Look at Geelong, all their youngsters come in for a fortnight or so then take a break at refocus. Magner in and out who cares. I don't want the following players shuffled: Watts, Strauss, Tapscott, Blease, Nicholson, Terlich, Jetta, Viney, Matt Jones, Trengove, Tom McDonald, Evans. These are guys at the age/experience level/talent where they need a sustained run to show they will make it as AFL players and if they aren't performing need a good period in the reserves. By in large that is what's happened with this group. As for Sellar, Pedersen, Dunn, Bail, Magner, Rodan, Byrnes, Spencer, Macdonald they can go in and out as much as the coach wants. If they make the team better keep them in, if not look for someone who does. I don't agree with dropping Magner but the easy question is did Magner make us better and the answer against Freo at least was no. Same for Kent, Taggert, Toumpas, Fitzpatrick, Gawn. Young guys like this who probably need preseasons to develop and to find form at Casey every now and then can come in for a taste and then go out for a rest. It's best to give them 2 weeks at a time in the seniors so they have week 2 to demonstrate what they learnt in week one but it's no harm in moving them around. Look at Hawthorn. They have about 18 who are pretty much non negotiable and they are the 18 starting then look at their 7 on the bench and realistically besides picking both rucks its any 4 of them who could play. So they have about 4 spots up to grabs each week minus injuries and therefore will be making anywhere from 0 to 4 changes. We have at a minimum (and i'd say minimum) the 4 on our bench who get picked plus Pedersen, Bail and Rodan makes 7 who come in this week to a struggling side with big concerns about the standard they will play at. How are we meant to send that team out and not expect changes every week.

I don't like it but when you see Hawthorn's starting backline - Gibson, Birchall, Mitchell, Guerra in particular you can see why Neeld is keen to have guys with defensive attitude like Joel Macdonald and Bail in the team. As bad as the result we be anyway if we don't at least keep Hawthorn's backline under pressure to get the ball every time we get the ball from our backline the 4 I named above will just run riot. I think Bail will go to Mitchell and if not Tapscott to Birchall then maybe that's Joel Macdonald's job. I'd rather give that to Tapscott and see if we can play Kent deep forward but I won't be surprised to see Neeld select the player with the greater work rate.

1st goal: Decent running to get out the back of a zone, really set up by players up the field 2nd goal: Very good crumbing goal 3rd goal: Very poor defending by Saints lets Blease snap a goal on his left set up by Trengove going 3rd man up 4th goal: Runs hard gets to the front of the contest keeps running and nails a goal Score 101 to 46 5th goal: Simple lead to 50 out gets a cheap 50m penalty, score 101 to 58 So in reality one good crumbing goal (the second one) and some other efforts but 2 very junk time goals (it was round 20 ffs)! Even when he's on he has the following traits: Selfish - Often tries to do it all instead of using first option Lazy - Doesn't do defensive running Poor kick - Often sends the ball sailing over a leading players head Can't win contested ball - Isn't a hard at it player Doesn't win enough outside ball as he lacks work rate Not a natural crumbing forward No doubt he has a high ceiling. You say what's the best Sam Blease can be and the answer is probably Steven Motlop level but his current output is just miles off. Lets have a look at Blease's traits:

They use how for that now. He's better in the air and works harder than Watts.

Cost is irrelevant. What's the point. Dawes was very good against Richmond then held by the best defense in the league against Freo. Max hasn't touched the ball in a month. Skills? like the two drop marks in the goal square the last two weeks? And he has a go when the ball is near but can't find any space. Which tells me he's a defender, let's reload him at Casey. It's his fault for getting suspended. Wouldn't mind seeing him have a go for some part. Have to work out whether he has any future in the role or not.

FB: Terlich Frawley Garland HB: Strauss Pedo Dunn C: Evans Jones Jones HF: Tapscott Dawes Howe FF: Davey Fitzy Watts Foll: Jamar McKenzie Trengove INT: Rodan, Nicholson, Bail, Kent Emer: Spencer, Sellar, Macdonald OUT: Byrnes, Magner, Sellar, Gawn, Jetta IN: Kent, Rodan, Pedo, Fitzy, Strauss Ok maybe it's just me but if the final team lines up as I have it then I think it's pretty reasonable selection. Sellar is replaced by Pedersen can't argue much with that. Byrnes (regardless of injury) for Kent for some youth. Magner for Rodan is a like for a like and whilst Magner is stiff we know our midfield is rubbish so we have to try something. Magner just hasn't done anything creative at all it's just jump on the footy and hope he's got a runner to help him out. Then Strauss back in because he's in our best 6 defensive and push Nicholson to a wing where he can use his fitness and therefore leave our more dangerous forward in the forward line. That results in Jetta out which is fine by me he has always struggle to impact games up forward. The one decision I don't like is Bail still in but if Byrnes is injured and Jetta isn't really a forward who else do we have? The only name at Casey is Taggert and he's probably not ready yet. Oh and before I get Fitzy will come in and replace Gawn and that is fine as well. Neeld (especially with such an overpowered midfield) wants more run and pressure from forwards so isn't going to play Gawn, Jamar and Fitzy. We've got Watts and Howe as mobile targets up forward anyway. For all those talking about Gawn being dropped are probably the same hippocrits who profess love for Geelong's system of development through the VFL. We all know big Max is an important part of the future but he isn't ready yet. He came in with a heap of energy and vigour and has lost that and isn't finding the ball when forward and in the ruck isn't contributing a lot either. Jamar continues to give our midfield first use of the ball and is mixing up his hit points and tactics. Yes he's not contributing around the ground but neither was Max. Let's give Gawn a few weeks in the VFL if he stars he can then take Jamar's spot with confidence not a we had no one else style promotion.

Max could've rucked last week but he's not physically or football ready to ruck for large periods of games unless he has to. Too much is made of Jamar's lack of possessions because the media talk it up. No one in our team gets possessions. Jamar has to get down and get his hand on the ball and/or tackles at the clearance and use his weight but he doesn't have to necessarily get possessions. We saw how things went from bad to worse with Spencer. We don't have the luxury to drop him. Yes we need Viney, Grimes, Clark and Toumpas but we don't have them. We've had Jetta play the last two weeks and do SFA but that's been up forward. I'm sure the club would love to be good enough not to play Byrnes but he's on par with Tapscott and still better than Blease, Bail and Jetta as a small forward. How do you know Sellar was recruited by Craig. As far as I know Craig provided a description of Sellar to our recruiting staff and they made the call that for a mature age back up defender he's about the best available. I actually believe that as well. Not that I think he's good but he's been all we would expect. I'm much more worried about Gillies and Pedersen who have been miles off what was advertised than Sellar. You seemed to have missed that the number 1 reason we get smashed so badly is lack of effort. Lack of skill is number 2 but surely you have to fix number 1 first and that is the reason for McKenzie and Nicholson. Get the injured blokes back and they go out but for now I'd take effort as a priority.

I think I'll cry if they play Joel Macdonald as a defensive forward. I might cry if they play him regardless.

Carlton haven't had good recruiting! They nailed there number one pics (although Cotchin over Kreuzer would've been ambitious but right). It's why they will end up going nowhere and Judd will start to slow down as others hit peaks. However their recent move of hiring Steve Wellls 2IC from Geelong is a very clever move!

We won't get near the saints or dogs on current form. It's not that we've been bad and haven't won but that we've been awful and haven't even got close to any kind of competitive footy. Look at the half time score against Freo and in the inside 50 count. West Coast aren't a good side at all this year and after sticking with them for a half got destroyed again. I'm happy to take our time with Neeld but it won't be because we are hoping he'll save himself.

Sounds like a good plan. What I'd judge him on would be whether he can win the ball under pressure, work his butt off to get the ball and whether he can put on defensive pressure. It's clear as day he has the skills when he gets it. I don't think anyone could've saved those 2 indigenous boys. Wona just had too much community pressure to stay home after he lost his most important father figures. Then the same for Liam when his family fell apart. The question for Garlett is why he felt the need to go have a bender just days before Essendon were set to rookie him. Does he have family troubles or some other underlying issue.. Or is it as simple as he's never had the right attitude and work rate and therefore if he can get that he'll be set. Michael Walters grew up in the same street as Yarran and NicNat, now it was reported as a bit of a rough area and it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't have an easy child hood. So when he gets into the AFL he isn't the most motivated or hardest worker but with time Ross Lyon has obvious got him switched on and he's now on fire (prior to injury). Could Garlett be the same?

Our kicking in isolation is fine. The problem is we don't run hard enough and therefore don't kick to advantage and other simple things. If you the better sides they take the short option if you give it up and then kick long to position to either open men or smart contests. We just have so little on that there's no way to win.

We need to push past the way media spin everything in hindsight as well. James McDonald was 33 about to turn 34 when we retired him. He was starting to slow down and we had a lot of promising young talent on the list. There was no reason to keep him. Robbo, Yze and White were also starting to struggle and all were replaced by better players. Jamar was way past White. Jurrah was the new Robbo and Yze had run his race. This issue was that besides McDonald none of the above were great leaders anyway and then they handed over the leadership batton to Green, Bruce, Moloney and co. Bailey never got the leadership issue sorted properly whilst he was there. Daniher never played enough young footballers as he desperately sought finals glory that was never going to happen. So the generation of kids he did play - Miller, Moloney, McLean, Rivers, Davey, Jamar, Sylvia just weren't up to it when they had to take over. I don't blame Neeld at all for demoting this group, unfortunately he did it in such a manner that it ended up costing him and will likely go someway towards costing his job. No doubt we need strong leaders but if you are an experienced player and aren't one why should Neeld invest time in fixing your leadership instead of promoting the next generation. Neeld has brought in Mitch Clark and Dawes up forward, the Jack's will develop, Nathan Jones has developed as a leader, Garland and Frawley are trying in the back half. The wheel will turn for leaders and we will see long term a culture change into high performance. No doubt we need a better coach who can actually teach football and build confidence and performance. But we will have thrown the baby out with the bath water (which is what Neeld did to many players who came in under Bailey) if we don't keep the standards Neeld has set in terms of training at a much higher level. Of course the other issue is recruiting. Bailey had some ready to go players left over from the Daniher years (as named above), he then had some special if flawed talents in the likes of Jurrah and Wona. Best of all he had some nice shiny toys in high draft picks in Scully, Trengove, Morton (who played some decent footy his first 2 years), Grimes and co. Kids who looked damn good when the side was up and running. Neeld ended up paying for all the players who looked ok but weren't up to AFL standard recruited in the Bailey years. Then Neeld chucked too much of it away searching for a quick fix. Hopefully now with Jason Taylor we get back on the right track.

You've harped on and on about Gysberts. This isn't an anti Neeld thread this is a thread for people to nominate some names and debate them. Putting up Gysberts name is stupid and a waste of time. It's trolling a legitimate thread. Yeah but where are we going to find them? We should invest our high end (first and second round) draft picks on top class kids and we should make a play at free agency if there is anyone available (which looks increasingly unlikely) but besides that there is a massive whole in our list for young midfielders and we will improve better if we can find some with some maturity who are ready to plug and play. Terlich and Matt Jones have become two of our more reliable players, that says a lot for the talent on our list and says that most likely guys not getting games at other clubs are far superior to the guys we have now.

Thanks for your smart ass contribution stuiey. Really mature. Oh and using foxtel cup games for proof... really?

Very slow for me. Matthew Bate slow.

I thought we should've rookied him last year and left him in WA with a WAFL club until he got his act together. Unfortunately he's a player who you couldn't trust until he shows he's matured and by then he won't be a cheap pick up. Still Freo did a good job taking Walters from under performed to budding star of the comp

You follow a comment about him being a disappointment with him being captain. That doesn't say enough? Close thread please

This kid would be handy. Hard at it, physical inside mid. Compares favorably to Caddy who left GC. I'd gladly give up our second round pick

Kyle Martin - Coll Rookie list 178cm 77kg 23 years old Inside midfielder who likes a goal. Kicked Six on the weekend for Coll VFL From Frankston via local footy at Noble Park Would be a tough ask to get a guy away from the pies when he's come from a year in the VFL straight to their rookie list ie. his career progression is still on the up, its not like he's had to stall at this stage But if he was at Melbourne he'd be undoubtedly getting a game now alongside a Matt Jones.

Yes but the whole point is I don't think (and from what Goodes and the girl have said subsequently) the girl said it as a racist thing. More of a you've got a hairy beard and are a big imposing bloke with broad shoulders. I've never heard of an Indigenous Australian be ridiculed with ape before. It's completely different to soccer players/Andrew Symonds monkey noises. But to blame Goodes is stupid. He heard something he thought was racist and did what he could do. The blame lies with media making this into a bigger issue than it needed to be. Even now arguing against Goodes is making the issue drag on.

Terlich Frawley Garland = I've seen enough out of Terlich to think he's a serious player. Garland is up and down and good enough. Frawley is a good footballer, this line is good enough for a top 8 team. Watts McDonald Grimes = This line isn't up to it yet. Watts just hasn't shown the hardness or defensive mindset yet. Grimes is but is injured lots. McDonald needs to get back into 2012 form especially his kicking, he isn't ready yet but he shows great potential. Toumpas Jones Blease = Blease might not make AFL level especially the wing, he's better off trying to play deep forward I think. Toumpas isn't ready. Jones is the only one on this line up to scratch, the others are prospects. Howe Dawes Sylvia = I believe Dawes is good enough with a reasonable midfield and a tall to help. Sylvia when played half forward/rotating midfield is up to scratch. Howe is good enough. Clark Hogan Trengove = Hogan is a great prospect. Trengove will overcome his speed/form issues eventually especially if not injured. Clark is a top line key forward and even better if he can be used in and out of the ruck if Hogan and Dawes can keep the forward line going. Gawn Viney = Gawny is a fair way off but great potential, despite the knocks on him Jamar is performing at a reasonable level right now. Viney has shown he's ready to go now as a depth midfielder from the bench At the end of the day we are missing a couple of reliable defenders but have the guys with the potential (McDonald, Watts, Strauss, Dunn, Clisby could all step up). Same for small forward where we need guys who can do both defensive pressure and kick goals and work up the ground. And we have really nice potential with tall forwards and rucks. The big area which will concern any future coach is how on earth will he scrape a midfield from our list. Some of our better players: Grimes, Sylvia, Howe (possibly Trengove) can all look good when played forward or back yet they have to play midfield to carry the load. We've got Jones, a moderate tagger in McKenzie, VFL players in Matt Jones and Magner and a bunch of kids like Viney, Evans, Toumpas who are expected to carry the midfield. We need 1 decent outside and 2 decent inside mids to help carry the load for us to get anywhere. Whilst at the same time we need the kids we do have playing and improving and we need to fix up our game plan so the players trust each other and play with some intensity. To be honest I think we'll need a free agent/scrap heap midfielder again (there aren't any good free agents available besides Daisy) but hopefully this time it works unlike Rodan. Then we'll have to play guys like Howe on a wing, Grimes in the midfield, Sylvia spending time in the midfield and then wait it out for Viney, Toumpas, Evans and this years draft picks to progress. Jones, Trengove and McKenzie (those last two both injury interrupted) are the fittest mids on our list. We can't have Bail, McDonald and Nicholson as the guys at the top of our 3km time trials. We need more midfielders up there. The challenge is on for Toumpas, Viney, Evans, Taggert to get to that level.

Case 1: 13 year old girl calls a black man with a hairy beard an ape Goodes was in the heat of the moment. He felt he was wronged so pointed the girl out probably not knowing exactly how old she was. The next day he as much admitted it wasn't meant as a racist slur and he over reacted. The AFL seemed to handle it ok. The two groups who didn't were: 1. The media - they broadcast this girl out to be some horrible villian 2. The MCG Security (obviously these guys aren't the sharpest tools in the shed) and the Police if they felt the need to interrogate this girl for 2 hours. Case closed we move on. Case 2: Crazy yelling fan: I'm not so sold on this guys innocence. Yes it probably wasn't racists to suggest favouritism to Indigenous players due to it being Indigenous round but it's not very clever either. It's comments like this that stir up racism and make others (like 13 year old girls) feel they can take it a step further. He doesn't deserve the police chasing him but he should smarten up as well. I'd suggest his prescribed punishment of some cultural education is a good idea. He doesn't seem to have much concept of the reasoning behind an indigenous round.

Bartram Frawley Garland MacDonald Rivers Bruce Morton Sylvia Scully Dunn Watts Maric Green Jurrah Wonaeamirri Jamar McKenzie Davey P. Johnson, Bennell, Bail, Jones Kennelly, Richards, Mattner Malceski, Grundy, Shaw Hannebery, Kennedy, Jack McGlynn, Goodes, Moore, Jetta, White, Bolton Mumford, McVeigh, O'Keefe Pyke, Meredith, Kirk, Bevan Sydney had 15 players from the 2012 premiership team. Plus Kennelly and Kirk from 2005 flag, plus McGlynn would have played if not injured. What's worse, 2012 finished and we start back 2013 even worse. No doubt things went astray in 2011 but I don't see how anyone can defend Neeld when Bailey got results like this. Now what went wrong. That backline was really good. Bartram obviously had his career ruined by the knee injury that ruined his fitness and pace but before then was a great stopper. But that half backline hasn't been replaced properly. We had smart defensive players who could run. Bruce felt he was owed 2 years so walked then Rivers after that. Guys like Watts, Grimes and Tom McDonald were perfect to replace those 3 but it hasn't worked out. Same for a replacement for Bartram until we found Terlich. Bennell who was in that team or Strauss should've held a spot as well. The midfield is the most damning. We smashed Sydney's premiership winning midfield but there's developed as ours went backwards. Obviously Morton and Scully went down hill then out. Sylvia and Davey couldn't keep any form. Bail who was a high half forward/tagger and running machine is now a horrible defensive forward. McKenzie had 12 tackles but has got worse since then. Of interest there was no Moloney/James McDonald in that team. The most glaring problem is that forward line which I agree was structurally weak but had guys who could find the ball and kick a goal. I don't think any club would've stuck by Wona or Jurrah or being able to prevent what happened back home with them. The rest couldn't hold any form. Lastly the ruck. Jamar was AA that year. Paul Johnson for all his frustrations did give the Russian a chop out at times and then could be a big lad in the forward line. Now he wasn't physical at all but we ended up down grading with Stef Martin then down grading again with Pedersen/Sellar. Anyway I feel like we didn't identify players who were contributing to us winning games. We then followed that up with bad list management decisions and horrible player development. No doubt a percentage of that was due to a poor culture that wasn't about the high performance we've been told so much about. But my overwhelming theory is that Neeld, our list managers, our development team have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.