Howard_Grimes

I don't understand why you're quoting me regarding your first paragraph. I was simply pointing to where much of the conversation on here has strayed to over the past four years and that I disagree with a lot of it. Maybe let's leave it. As far as your last paragraph goes, you're missing out again the most important factor in why we haven't been able to shift and why there are teething issues. It goes further than an 'ability or time to learn'. It's about execution. And again it comes back to our list. We simply don't possess enough attributes across the board to execute the type of game required to compete with the best sides. And as we've seen, if out contest and pressure isn't present against lower rung sides, we are also in trouble. That is entirely on Goodwin. Hasn't made the right calls or the calls he has made have been the same ones netting us the same result, the same predictable outcomes and the same types of losses. How many more times are we going to hear that our inefficiency cost us a game? And how many more times from Goodwin are we going to hear that 'we're working incredibly hard on it and the results will come', all the while playing and trusting the same group of core players who are the reason behind it all?

Mental fatigue was listed, it was never a centrepiece. You've stated that it's a centrepiece. I used it as an example of a factor that isn't talked about nearly enough around here due to the conversation being consistently steered in the 'loading' or the 'we're not fit enough' direction by a select few popular posters. Mental fatigue absolutely holds given our core group have barely changed and that's where most of your output as a side comes from. And that's part of the issue. And I also disagree re Binman always stressing that it's a multitude of factors. Perhaps more recently he's come around due to our now consistent and predictable shortcomings. But early days the main conversation and excuses for our performances were around 'loading, injury, not being fit enough'. Not list imbalance, skill execution and level being MAJOR issues, inability to adapt being a major issue, the consistency and predictability of losing the same way being a major issue. Which of course leads to mental fatigue, lower motivation levels, loss of confidence etc etc.

Something that goes on wayyyy too much on DL.

Putting a 'load' into the boys is completely different to the concept of 'loading' in order to peak at a certain time of year. Goody means we 'trained hard'. And there would have been a greater work-load given we had almost an entire week without training. And this is simply in order to maintain fitness levels and be 'on' for the next match. This is what happens when the loading topic becomes THE topic. People get confused.

It's a good question and again I think it's a multitude of factors. Some that all clubs experience when at the top which is the idea and psychology around consistently being the hunted and what comes with that after a period of time. Opposition sides figuring out ways to disarm and undo a game plan. A competition where you need to be constantly evolving. The thing about our game-plan back then was that we had built a core group who's strengths shone in that particular template and I would say definitely masked obvious weaknesses. But due to how well we were able to execute that game-plan, our weaknesses weren't as much of an issue during that time although they were still very much there. Whether that was the finals series of 22/23 or throughout season campaigns at different stages. Finishing skills, converting shots at goal, execution inside 50 when under little pressure etc. All the same issues. I also think we possessed what every club at the top goes through which is aura. And with that comes a strong sense of self-belief and confidence. And with a swell of momentum from the footballing world, media and our own supporters through that 21' flag year, you can see how morale, confidence and the psychology around knowing you're the best in it just plays such a huge role. I think Darren Burgess was another factor. His aura, the confidence he instilled in the players. Even if it was a placebo thing with his programs. These things are very real, especially in sport. It's no surprise to me that our game fell apart once our game-plan had been unravelled. I think out of all the great modern day sides that have won flags in the last decade, we've been the most one-dimensional which is why it's been much harder for us to adapt. Which is completely list related. Too many similar types, too many of the same weakness. All ultimately exposed once our system came undone. I could go on.

The theory that we had/have 'the most demanding' game style as being a reason for our poor performances is just another excuse pushed out to the front of the queue, masking the more pressing issues that have plagued us for a long time. It's the same brigade that spruik the 'loading' talk. And whilst I value Binman's thoughtfulness, articulation and deep-dive into all things stats, I think this place has turned into an echo-chamber of sorts thanks to some of the same excuses getting far too much airtime. The idea and theory that we are not fit enough is just wild and flies in the face of the excuse of the last few years around not having our best players on the park. We've had arguably the best run with injury of all clubs this year, a much kinder draw and now the goal posts have been shifted by the same brigade toward 'mini rebuild/game-plan teething' issue. Every year an excuse is thrown up and pushed to the front and it's a rinse and repeat situation with a handful of the same ones on rotation. All the while, the symptoms persist and issues remain. Perhaps the idea of over-complicating some pretty straight forward corrections is just a more interesting pastime for some and is also a less painful lens to look through? That's how I see it. Now having said all of this, it's not that I'm entirely counting out any influence that these 'rinse and repeat reasons' might have had along the way. They're wholeheartedly interlinked to the ACTUAL issues that plague us. Take the idea/theory that we don't look 'fit enough' as an example. And perhaps I can insert myself into this example as I've experienced it in real time myself during my footballing days to a high level I might add. If you work your [censored] off all game both offensively and defensively, to create space, shut down space, support, become an option, be used as an option and your team mates more often than not butcher the ball around the ground but more importantly on transition/turnover and going inside 50, you are going to experience some pretty significant fatigue. Now the fatigue won't just be physical if this trend continues, (which for Melb it does), the fatigue also becomes mental. It makes you question whether or not you should run to make that space if a particular player who is prone to turning the ball over may be flying through the middle only to kick with absolutely no care. Now if you span this out over a season or even seasons, you can see how this fatigue can manifest in all sorts of ways. But. The easy thing to say is, 'oh we're just not fit enough'. No. The same entirely goes with loading. I would put far more emphasis on the idea of mental fatigue being the more significant factor game to game with us, in part because of what I outlined above. But not limited to. I'd also say match-day crowds at the G, personal life, motivation levels, belief in Goody, the system, each other. All of these factors I'd have ahead of loading. Yet they can't be measured so nobody wants to talk about them whereas the idea of loading can be used an excuse for a loss! Or at least contribute to the 'fatigue' posters see in a loss. Also no. Our issues are simply tied to our list and to the coach. Plain, simple, boring and some would say negative. List imbalance and a coach who has been too slow and too stubborn to move forward from what won us a flag. Of course it's easier to look at 'outside factors' because it feels better and it makes for interesting hypothesising. But it's just that.

Your first sentence set the scene. You suggested the bias is more than just perception. Except it isn't. It's what you are perceiving vs someone else. I am a die hard Melb supporter and disagree with what you've said entirely. It's just a convenient way for ppl to dump emotionally after a loss and divert blame from the club/coaches/players. As far as the May headline goes... Welcome to the world of click bait media. And of course there will be more emphasis put on sensationalising a headline when it involves a player who has a checkered history with the MRO. Would this happen to other players who like May, have a history? Of course. Are one-eyed Melb supporters thinking about this? Of course not.

Isn't it interesting that in our flag year, there were no threads like this? Were the media trying to drag us down then? I think it's more a case of some on here needing to take their glasses off.. There are some wild conspiracy theories going on in here..

All clubs have one-eyed supporters who believe this to be true against 'their' club. They can't all be right can they? It's the biggest load of tosh going on.

Ready for Goodwin to be paid out at seasons end. Lever out when he was never ready nor needed to come back. JVR out of form but also being played ruck constantly can't be helping with his rhythm and confidence as a forward. Caleb Windsor being played in the wrong position and has been all year. Viney, Oliver, Trac back in the midfield together. Petty up forward. Should be a cracker!

Was this sarcasm? Did I miss a previous post?

I mean no offence, it was a bit of sarcasm. Appreciate your training rundowns!

Didn't mean to quote @dazzledavey36 *

I'm not sureeeee but I get the feeling that the players might not be willing to tell die hard supporters that attend training sessions their true thoughts on things.. Just a feeling I have, I dknow..

No worries, happy to agree to disagree. I think just as important is to bring in a new voice, new ideas and a breath of fresh air, especially for the older brigade. And I think Buckley is one (of a few) that are available and that have that kind of aura about them. And I'm of the belief that he'd have learnt a lot about his time at Collingwood, mistakes he made, things he did well/didn't do well etc. Melbourne supporters get too caught up in his 'Collingwoodness' and all that allegiance nonsense. And I think just as importantly, some stronger line-coaches would help. Again, no idea whether or not anything of the sort is financially viable. But as one of many, I'm ready for change. Goody is just a broken record now. No substantial/consistent change in our weaknesses for yearssss and no serious pieces moved in order to keep up with the pack. The players feel it. You can see it. Many supporters feel it. There comes a time.

Agree and have said much the same. It's also about evolving your list and sometimes these kinds of decisions are actually the right ones as opposed to keeping everyone together cause we 'love them.' I also think we did incredibly well to win a flag and that some of the talk around 'dynasty' and that we should have won multiple flags with the group is a furphy given how much the game has changed and constantly changes year upon year. I think that view gave many false hope that we were going to be a Hawthorn or even Richmond. The same problems existed throughout that 21' season. I'd keep trac over Oliver though. Ultimately, he is the more professional of the two, has leadership qualities, can play multiple positions and this year is just an easing back in year given what he went through so I'm not going hard on his form, which aside from last week has actually been pretty good. Oliver on the other hand has been a liability defensively for the last two years, still has issues that he's not over that have a big influence on his week to week and day to day training and then output. List balance, cohesion, connectedness and some fresh air for both parties imv.

One kick off having what Goody has. Featured in a number of finals campaigns whilst trying to rebuild a list on the fly. Had a 5-2 head to head record against Goody. Has openly stated he'd like to coach again and I know for a fact we had made an approach asking him about it not too long ago. When posters say things like, "game has gone past him", it's bewildering. Like, genuinely. On what grounds do you make that comment? He coached under Mick straight after retirement and then was a senior coach for almost a decade, falling short by a kick in a GF. And since then, has been in footy through the media, sharing his knowledge and insight into the modern game. Coaching is multifaceted, to say the games gone past him is just wild. Personally, I think the group is ready for a fresh voice but a voice that commands respect, inspires and has players on their toes again before they even speak a word to the group. Someone with gravitas. Someone like Buckley. I genuinely see us at a cross roads. I can't see our senior players maintaining a consistent spike in form before they retire under Goody. I think they're all too tired, too bored of the messaging, don't feel like they have anything to prove. I see all of this through a psychological lens separate from gameplan and list issues. I think it contributes to the in-fighting and arguing we see on field. It's all part of it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way. When the symptoms start repeating, you know there's something underlying and I think some of what we're seeing in performance, energy, vibe, confidence etc is due to Goodwin. And I think he needs to go.

Man, if someone from the media could take this to a presser of his and read it out to him. It would be all time. Sometimes I genuinely can't tell if he's just taking the [censored] at pressers or if he just struggles to expand on questions and freezes up/gets anxious in a public forum. I always hope it's the latter. Whilst we're on the topic, I'd take Buckley and an overhaul of some assistant coaches in a heartbeat at the end of the year if it Goody's payout wasn't crazy big. I don't know the details, but I just get the feeling Goody's messaging regardless of the 'progress' we're seeing, (are we though?), is getting so very stale around the playing group.

Isn't it interesting that you're the one using that word?

@Adam The God still likening us to Hawthorn of last year?

Of course it is, it's an enormous elephant in the room that nobody wants to admit. Huffs and puffs all year when his team mates make errors but aside from last week against the pies, he has been incredibly inconsistent within games and regularly making howlers.

I think the point is that more needs to be done. Yeh, two draft picks from last year who both use the ball well is great. But we need to start actually making some ground on teams in this area and make some more difficult calls on some senior players who are just not cutting it. We are going nowhere if we put the same names on the park next year.

Big fella!

It's the result of drafting and trading for players who are competitors and/or runners. It's honestly as simple as that. Composure, decision making and kicking have never been the number 1 priority since the 'Melbourne player' tag-line was introduced. When you have that many players on your list who all share the same weakness, this is the result. Kicking yourself out of the game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If we don't want to be left behind in a big way, Goody simply has to make some difficult but necessary calls on moving some senior players on in the off-season. Oliver, Viney, Trac, Rivers. Their inability to execute skills at important times is unbelievably bad. Oliver was just wild today when he got the ball. No care. Viney, same story. Trac, same story. Rivers lacks serious composure too. We need to make some hard calls at the end of the year, Oliver needs to go. I'd be willing to let Fritsch go and I hope May retires so Petty never plays forward again. Plus I think May is just not a great team mate. Hard calls. Make them Simon.

How much is Oliver getting paid again? Holy [censored], I don't think I've seen a mid like him simply not care about their disposal. Just no care.