rpfc

Cute... Why not mention it Matt? It will take the pressure off the kid when he gets bombarded on twitter about why he isn't training, where is he, etc. Just mention he is still recovering from a broken leg. And I hope we gave him a 2+ year contract - 2014 is as good as done unless he can get a decent amount of pre season into his legs, one of which is broken...

At the moment...

You do relaise that this isn't an argument against Neeld or even Riley, it's an argument against mob opinion.

I am not the one making a big deal of it, I actually said multiple times that it isn't a big deal. It's an aside, something to think about, and my opinion (and fact) that we won't maximise the Tyson deal if we don't have 58 as a live pick. And he was delisted October 30.

I don't think trading away a ruckmen for a pick that is near the pick that it took to draft the ruckmen in the first place is anything other than a waste of years of development. It backs up my point - you are better off letting other teams or state leagues develop a ruckman for you and trade or draft them when they are better prepared for the AFL. Drafting Ruckmen: All those early(ish) in the ND and the successes of the low risk PSD/RD 2000 - ND: Koschitzke (2), Angwin (7), Chapman (29) 2000 - PSD/RD: Campbell, Jolly 2001 - ND: Hale (7), Brooks (15), Seaby (22), Playfair (41) 2001 - PSD/RD: Jamar, Sandilands 2002 - ND: McIntosh (9), Laycock (10), N Smith (15), Minson (20), P Johnson (24) 2002 - PSD/RD: N/A 2003 - ND: Spaandermann (18), Blake (38) 2003 - PSD/RD: N/A 2004 - ND: Meesen (8), Pattison (16), Wood (18), A Hartlett (25), Ackland (33), F Deluca (35), Maric (40) 2004 - PSD/RD: Griffin 2005 - ND: Ryder (7), Clark (9), Bailey (18), West (31), Warnock (42), Rix (49) 2005 - PSD/RD: Graham 2006 - ND: Leuenberger (4), Sellar (14), Hampson (17), Renouf (24), Goldstein (37) 2006 - PSD/RD: N/A 2007 - ND: Kreuzer (1), McEvoy (9), Lobbe (18), Simpson (34) 2007 - PSD/RD: Bellchambers, Martin, Spencer, Mumford 2008 - ND: Naitanui (2), Vickery (8), Cordy (14), McKernan (28), J Roughead (31), Z Clarke (37) 2008 - PSD/RD: Pyke, Jacobs, Keeffe 2009 - ND: Gawn (34), Vardy (43), Fitzpatrick (50) 2009 - PSD/RD: Daw, Casboult I can count the successes with early ND picks with one hand: Koschitzke, NikNat, Ryder, Leuenberger, and Kreuzer - and I count 19 failures in the top 30. There are some good return in the 30s to 40s but the failures I see still out number the successes and the question marks. I see 10 successes from the PSD/RD in those ten years. Unless you have a sure talent like the 5 above (who were taken at 2, 2, 7, 4, and 1 oddly enough) you really shouldn't bother with taking teenage ruckmen until late in the ND or in the PSD/RD. The ROI is quite terrible, even compared to other types of players in the Teenage Lottery Draft of the AFL.

If we don't use Pick 58, then we lose value in that trade and we should have brought in something else that we would have made use of. It's not a massive issue, I just prefer to get full value from all deals. And as I said, you can look at it as insurance in case Riley decided to go into the draft and we didn't pick him up. I just don't like seeing value lost in trades, that's all.

And what view is that? That he would like to convince Byrnes to retire and break a two-year contract with the club? There are always going to be players that posters don't want to be at the club: Munga doesn't want Watts, Ben-Hur doesn't want McKenzie, Everyone doesn't want Nicholson, but it gets tedious when posters constantly refer to the removal of a player. He is contracted for another year, I hope he can contribute next season as we still don't have a small forward on the list besides him. He came for very little, he doesn't cost much, and yet he draws ire outside of what he deserves. Time to move on?

I know you must be frustrated that we didn't trade him for Pick 30 but the variables have changed, and while you and Stuie in particular can howl at the moon over the Groundhog Day of Optimism, Watts has never played under Roos. If you rate what Roos can do then you can understand how others can see there is more benefit in letting Roos have a chance with Watts than trading him for a speculative pick - which is all we would have got for him for the reasons you outline. You can be comfortable with your opinion, as I am comfortable with Roos' decision to back himself to make something of Jack.

Wait, you are claiming rucks getting traded as backing up your point? The team that traded for them is backing up my point. I will have a look a the drafts today.

We got something in a deal that we are not using. That's poor planning. It's not a big deal, and maybe we said to him 'we are taking you at 58 the Crows will not look at you until the RD, come under DFA and let us keep our flexibility.' I still think either Pick 58 or PSD2 will be a 'live' selection, I don't think we are done delisting. I guess we will see at the next lodgement.

And yet, the most dominate ruckman of this generation was a rookie? What about all the mistakes with ruckmen as early picks? They happen to affect the argument. Of course you pick the talents when they demand it, but a rucks value doing ruckwork takes 5 years to materialise if they are taken as teenagers. That's a rule with few exceptions.

They are doing a fine job. That doesn't mean that getting back Pick 58 in the Tyson deal and using it to upgrade Clisby isn't a waste. We did the same thing last year with Martin and pick 72. If you want it back, use it. Now you can look at it like insurance in case Riley didn't sign with us but you are still using value (however little) on a rookie upgrade. It's just an aside right now...until a good player goes after that pick...

That's an excellent point. I wonder whether the Rookie List will have a few 20/21/22 year olds.

Updated. Is Jetta and/or Nicholson > ND58 and/or PSD2? That is a mathematical equation rolling around in a few heads down at AAMI Park. We currently only have room for 9 and 40. That's fine, we don't have to use 58, however, the non-use of the pick means the value of the Tyson Deal is lessened and it is a sign of poor planning.

The same.

Surely one of Jetta or Nicho is gone. Two things - he must be highly regarded at the Dees to think that he won't be waiting in the rookie draft and Viney, Roos and co REALLY don't rate our midfield group.

Mods: Sorry for the bump, if you could put Old Poll in the title so people don't vote, that would be super.

I was making a side point, that was indirectly related to Watts. I didn't even mention his name. And providing an option for your teammate is what you should do unless, as I said, you are a chance to sheppard or block. Offensive minded players win football games and we are all looking for Tyson or Pick 9 or Trengove to be as good (or near to) as Swan, Ablett, et al. This is what they are going to have to do. Trust their teammate to win the footy and provide an outlet. Watts needs work to make it in the AFL and he needs to start enjoying the physical side of the game or else it will brush him aside, but the feeling on here that some players are too offensively minded is erroneous; all I saw last year was a team full of timid people hoping their bloke didn't get the footy. That's what I take exception to.

Drafting someone to play at Casey for 4 years is a waste of a pick. There are always exceptions. But as a rule, I would not be bothering with ruckmen until they are 20+ and only with late picks or trades.

I did a thread a couple of years ago detailing how sides are defined by their senior players and their fortunes tied to theirs (senior/prime: 23+ year olds with 70+ games experience): http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29466-the-outlook-senior-players-in-2012/ There were two aspects; where they are placed with regard to the rest of the competition and how they fare in their Pre Season as preparation for the season is a massive indicator of a players season In 2012 we had: Green, Moloney, Rivers, Davey, Sylvia, Jamar, MacDonald, Batram, Bate, Dunn, Frawley, Jones and Clark. 8 of those 13 were in the last year or second last year. In 2014 we have: Cross, Jones, Jamar, Vince, Byrnes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Clark, Dawes, Trengove, Watts, McKenzie, and Grimes. Only 5 of the 14 look like they could be in their last or penultimate season. Those bolded battled bad form and injuries in 2013. Now, how this group compares to the rest of the AFL is subjective but I just wanted to point out how much this group has been improved over the last two years. How they fare this pre-season will determine how much we can improve. Where do they sit in the AFL? Get them fit and find out I guess...

BUMP (AND PLEASE DON'T FILL OUT THE POLL - IT IS THREE YEARS OLD) I thought about Gawn today and I vaguely recalled starting a thread about when we thought he would 'come on' and be able to command a spot in the 22. It's the third question in the poll; 75% thought it would have happened already. I thought 2016 or beyond would be the year. I bring up this not to pick on Gawn but to point out how long ruckmen take and that, in the future, we should not bother taking teenage ruckman with early picks, or even in the ND at all.

Glad to hear Frawley, Dunn, Jamar, Byrnes, and other older boys are getting involved a week before they have to. Obviously, they are keen to make a decent impression.

His bad knees put pressure on his hamstrings. And he is 208cm tall.

I think Nicholson and Jetta are still OOC.

lol Roos driving a Land Rover? He really is becoming a Demon... Note: I do not know if it is Land Rover.