rpfc

And yet, in our biggest game in 11 years - our resident soft [censored] was one of the few to stand up. And that is rewriting history that nonsense about Pedersen. That guy was dropped as many times as Watts this season...

'We have to harden up as a club rah rah rah, that first quarter against Collingwood was unacceptable rah rah rah' How that equals 'have to trade Watts' is where you lose me. Who rocked up in the first quarter of that game for us? That start was an indictment on the team, the leadership group, and the coaching staff in some order. Watts was brought back into that team against the wishes of some and he was one of the few that could walk to the group at qtr time and say 'I did my job in the most important game for this club in 11 years.' He can go, but we better get back that need for skills and vision moving into our forward line this trade period or we are running on the spot.

I wouldn't have bothered writing all that on a lost cause. I have hope, I have expectations and you can thank Jackson/Roos for that. But there are questions that need to be answered with actions next year. Simple as that.

I will live with any deal or any trade period as long as we are addressing needs. In the absence of more details, this only exacerbates a need.

Ok, so that was me trying to politely say you shouldn't have bothered for half the list...

Especially when the cap goes up a couple million over night October 30...

We would have gone to Port and thrashed them, they were that bad against the weagles. And then we would have been at Spotless against a bunch of arrogant flogs in a tough final. I reckon we were a bees dick away from a Prelim at the G against the Tigers... Hypotheticals are fun!

The problem with the above, CB is that there is usually a gulf between what we would want for a player and what other teams would pay. That gulf is only connected if a player wishes to leave or we are ambivalent on whether they stay or go. So our top ten talents or so have N/A as value because no club is going to give us what we would want for them. ie. All things being equal I would not accept ND4 and ND10 for Petracca. But no club is going to give us ND1, ND5 and a player for him, and that is the deal that begins to make me think about trading him. At the other end of the scale you have players with value to us that have no value, or commensurate value, to other teams - Jones and Lewis come to mind. Jones would not get a team willing to part with a pick inside the top 25 but we would not move him on for that non existent pick. And there is another dozen without a value at all. Coz no one would give us anything for them.

This should go in the Goodwin thread. Every fan thinks there team does things 'that good teams don't do' but we are different - we know.

Watts had 6 poor games in 2017, which is not good enough, but is not 'back to his old ways' - in fact he was really damaging for a period before he did his hammy. I would argue he had more good games playing his role as he had poor games. As with most threads on Watts, the discussion quickly moves to extremes and history rewritten to back that extreme up.

I would argue that Roos left a vacuum because others didn't step into the breach they should have stepped into. And Roos got a pass from me because of the basket case he inherited, and the list he had to transform. He truly was the greatest caretaker coach in the history of the game, and not much more.

Is this Deeluded? We have not been a soft team since 2015. The last two years have shown that you can alter your hardness at the ball and the man if you prioritise that. Those that think we 'have to get rid of players that were around in the soft old days' are misguided. Watts turned the corner in 2016 only to regress. Jones doesn't need to go anywhere. When posters write that they are referring to their own psychosis about those years - the desire for players being moved on is an attempt to remove that well of doubt about the current progress being real or not. I don't worry that the team will regress to irrelevance.

A few things have been bugging me this season, don't get me wrong - I have enjoyed the march back to relevance - but there have been some odd missteps and frustrating emanations from the club that won't be solved by Jack Watts being traded... We all have a list of areas that go to explain why we didn't kick to extra goals over the course of the season - that is code for 'missing the finals'... My main ones are: Injuries and fluctuating form of our best 6-8 players (Jones, Gawn, Hogan, Oliver, Viney, Hibberd, Petracca, and T McDonald). The vacuum of leadership at the club The disappointing performance of the coaching staff These latter two bring into focus our fledgling coach Simon Goodwin. Coaching Performance: Tricks, a motivated group, but naivete abounds There is no doubt that he has motivated the core group of players to play a certain way; they play on with abandon, they handpass in tight spaces and trust 'the next man' to not fumble and to 'do their job.' However, this is overbalanced still and we didn't show much progress from the middle of the year to the end of the year in kicking when we were in position to. Sometimes, our forward line was not in position to make the most of a player quickly released by a chain of fantastic handballs; the player would look up and see player hurriedly running back into guarded space and/or expecting a kick so precise only 3 players on our list could hit the target. His 'trick bag' is innovative; the forwards coming off the back of the square threw teams for a loop and I look forward to more innovation and not resting on that move now that the competition has worked it out. This leads me to the forward line - it is schizophrenic - and I appreciate Goodwins ability to make changes at will if something isn't working, I felt like we had so many changes and different structures going forward that we ended up the season with nothing working. Hogan missing isn't an excuse for changing the structure. It's an excuse for that structure to work less efficiently. We would sometimes have a deep presence with smalls beside the tall, and when that didn't work we went 'fwd line is lava no one in the fwd line' with players running back into there. And there were a few setups in between there and while that is unpredictable to the oppo, it is also unpredictable to Tysons left foot... Then there were the two weeks we spent getting beaten by wind... I didn't see much of the NM game in Hobart but I saw the GWS massacre in all its gore. I wrote about it at the time - but the wind at Manuka always goes to the Kingston side pocket and that playing a man behind the football is a fact of life against a good team (the GWS respected us enough to have one in the 2nd term when they were 36 points up...), and yet we threw away our surprise 3 goal start by not only leaving our backs exposed for much of the quarter, but also by playing up the grandstand side of the ground for reasons that are yet to resonate with me. When you go up the grandstand side at Manuka, the wind is a propellant for the opposition to go through the middle of the ground and carve you up. Naivete or arrogance? I don't really care. It was the difference between being in the game and being out of it by quarter time. We had reports of similar play against NM the week before. If a team could drop a coach - those two weeks would seen Goodwin have a stint with Casey... The Vacuum of Goodwin Then there are the more complicated aspects to his persona that I wish he would address, I know he doesn't flame any bad narratives when he speaks - he hardly says anything when he speaks - but he would do well to understand that he can alter narratives for the better that might alleviate public (even if only Dees fans) pressure from certain players (Watts and Oliver come to mind, and of course Watts), prompt responses from those that should shoulder more burden than they do (outside of Watts and Tyson who is to blame for being 9th again?), and, lastly, shore up his own position and leadership (no one is that wooden, and no one that wooden leads anything for very long). Without this - we have a vacuum - Roos filled it quite easily. He would push narratives and could seem self-serving and distracting. And sometimes, that is the point; when talked about the scars and burdens of the past ad nauseum we felt like he was giving the club a continued excuse, but as he outlines in his new book - he was trying to push a creed of patience against the screed of despair that was rife internally. That helped lift the pressure of the players as they relearned how to play proper football. Goodwin seems in-cognisant of this ability, a we got a recent reminder of that with the below clip illustrating an awareness of a damaging narrative: that Watts "is the most talked about player" for someone who is not a core player, not in the leadership group, not in the coaching staff, and not in the administration. Those last points I added myself as Goodwin only stoked the narrative that Watts was worthy of all this attention after our failed 2017 by covering himself by saying he has a good relationship with Jack, mentioning the coaching staff are clear with Jack, and keeping the narrative of 'Watts = Melbourne' fermenting by giving the discussion relevance with the content and tone of his response about his contract and him staying at the club. Goodwin can come out forcefully and protect Jack Watts (or the next saviour) by shifting the focus and sharing the burden around with himself, his staff, the admin, and the leadership group that does very little leading when it comes to the burden of being the public face of the club, and the target of the ire of the club. Lewis does some and Gawn too, but years after Watts revealed himself to be nothing more than a uniquely talented role player, we are still shoving him into the coalface with little hesitation. If the rumours are true that we are shopping him around while at the same time that we are pushing him forward for cringeworthy press spots (https://au.sports.yahoo.com/afl/a/37206220/jack-watts-opens-up-on-2017-season-and-trade-talk/) - then the situation is more dire than I thought. I have heard from a good source that the interpersonal relationships at the club are good - and that gives me some solace, but I sit here and I have no idea who the leader of the club was. Last three years I could tell you who it was - for good or bad - it was Paul Roos. Oddly enough, he shielded the enigmatic blonde kid a couple times and Watts responded. But this year - I haven't heard much from the Admin so it isn't Jackson, it certainly isn't Mahoney or Bartlett. Nathan Jones has been seen and heard, but no more than previous years as captain. A novice coach doesn't have to be as good as Paul Roos - he is a great coach who helped redefine AFL in the professional era - but this novice coach needs to step up and start leading the club and driving the narratives that help his team, his players, and his club. Because, I have only seen or heard one leader since September 1 - and he might be traded next week...

If this [censored] club has this bloke up for trade and at the same time sanctions a puff piece for him to address whether he is up for trade - then we are getting no better as a club. It screams that we are just a [censored] for attention and the most divisive player we have is a good way to get it so let's trot him out and let him soak up the ire of fans still hurting from a few weeks ago... Just a pathetic way to treat an employee. Who is the leader of this club again? Honest question. Who shoulders the burden?

Told BB this - I have been very close to starting a thread a few times since the GWS game, but will get around to it while I have a couple long weekends. Goodwin inherited a good situation and is new to this but I have a few concerns around his tactics and persona. Probably small potatoes considering where we were pre-Roos but that should be irrelevant now.

If you are sick and tired of making excuses for the club, then don't let the rest of AAMI Park shield themselves behind Jack Watts. Critique the erratic coaching or the players that didn't show up for the first quarter against the Pies - because Watts doesn't need an excuse for that - he did show up.

Your neuroses (and a couple others) are all over this thread - extensive and raw and occasionally slimy and sticky - and I do worry whether this is pervasive across the broader Demon fan base. Watts is not the reason we didn't play finals. Watts is not the reason we didn't play finals. A team is made up of a collection of individuals with their own issues and talents, bringing ranging form and frustrating injuries. The failure to kick another two goals over the course of the season is the collective failure of the team; a number of injuries and medical absences to key players, the dipping of form of number of important players, the mistakes of a novice coach, and the nonchalance of an arrogant young team. The reason I bring this up in yet another 'Watts [censored] Off' thread is because rarely do non-core, non-bedrock players get so much heat for all the failings of a club. Jack is a high HF/wing with excellent vision, skills and footy IQ. Watts at his best is not the foundation for a finals winning team; he relies on others to get him the ball, and others to get the ball to, requiring, in some cases, great talent to start and finish his work. And yet, who is the player who gets the most ire? Who is the one 'we gotta get rid of (snort)'? This role player who played 8 good games out of 12, 3 poor ones in that 12, had a bad hamstring, played 3 more poor games, paid for it, and was one of about 3 players that showed up on time against Collingwood in the last round. This is the scapegoat for 2017. Him again?! Goodwin won't realise it for a decade but he should in his last press conference , or his after match conference, woken from his near comatose state that he seemingly is in all his conferences and lifted the burden from a player and spread it around or put it on himself. This rant isn't a defence of Watts - it is an indictment on some of you, my comperes, for showing little to no desire to look beyond the easy answer and perpetuate this flagellation and blame for someone who may leave in a couple weeks but in no way will solve 'The Demon Question' - whether he stays or goes. Remember, it was Watts who said to Paul Roos in a plea for him to come (not for himself to leave mind you) - 'I just want to be treated like a human being...'

Went forward a few times. He is value if healthy and firing. But getting into that backline is about to get real hard...

At this point the only player not compared to Pendlebury as a junior was Pendlebury...

Wouldn't trade him for 9 first round picks... @Wiseblood

Mate, no HF/wing should ever be in your top 3 players... you'd be going nowhere. Some of you seem to be so emotionally invested one way or the other. It is pretty [censored] simple - if he can be traded for something that is more helpful then great, otherwise he stays and we work with him to get the most out of him and his very handy skill set that we need more of; great vision, and superb foot skills.

Yeah, Hardie is beating something, but it ain't a drum...

The posters that don't provide that will be judged accordingly. And I wasn't responding to your tiers - I was responding to the lack of rumours up in here. C'mon people?! Someone go read bigfooty or something...

I hear exit interviews are very honest these days... They will tell those of their presence on the trade block. I reckon about 10 would be on the block.