BoBo

The ABC report was interviews with 3 families involved in the report. From the article: ‘Hawthorn had more than 20 First Nations players in the period of the review. Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families’ The report itself is apparently going to have more allegations.

Is the lynch mob in the room with you now Cranky?

@ding Oh shoot, I misread for me to PM you the links, my apologies. Not on purpose.

https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Publications/BB/bb41.pdf https://www.ibac.vic.gov.au/media-releases/article/ibac-audit-highlights-inadequacies-in-victoria-police's-handling-of-complaints-by-aboriginal-people https://hir.harvard.edu/police-violence-australia-aboriginals/amp/ Here’s a few. I recognise that the first two are VERY long, so I included the last one that is a synthesis of criminological findings as an explanation. ———————————————————————— You’ve said to me: ‘We we’re clearly discussing RPFC’s suggestion that white Ex-coppers couldn’t possibly give them a fair hearing’ And: ‘Are you suggesting all of our prosecutors, judges and juries are racist too?.... ALL of them? This garbage needs to stop.’ To answer your question about whether I think ex-white police officers could give indigenous Australians a fair hearing, the data (to which I’ve provided in the links) suggests that there is an huge implicit bias within the entire justice system. It isn’t about any one ( or five) individuals, it is at systemic level. Given this clear evidence of bias that’s is endemic within the justice system, it isn’t entirely outrageous to suggest having an integrity board that is filled with ex-members of a state apparatus that again, clearly has bias issues, might not be a good idea. Doesn’t make them bad people, but what it has the capacity to do, is allow these same systemic biases to replicate themselves. So I don’t know if they could or couldn’t give a fair hearing. Nobody does. The five members are probably perfectly fine people. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have such a high representation of people from a state apparatus that is very, VERY, problematic when it comes to just outcomes for indigenous Australians, in and of itself. I arrive at this position exclusively from what the data about this institution says. It’s not a flippant position.

Nup. That would be a dumb thing to say or to think I’m saying. I’m giving you statistical facts about how systemic racism exists and expresses itself in Australia which are a part of the reasons indigenous Australians to mistrust the police. Not an opinion either, it’s just very basic criminology which finds these disparities out. I can send you links to criminological papers on the issue which explains it all if you like?

489 indigenous deaths in custody since 1991 might be a reason? With 0 convictions? Indigenous people composing 3% of the Australian population but comprising 28% of jail inmates?

This is unfortunately ( yes, if proven true as they are allegations at this stage) only a small expression of what a lot of indigenous people have and still go through as being thought of as inferior in our society. It’s why it’s important to not let people minimise or deny the potency and regularity of racism in Australia. All you can do.

As far as I understand, the report was commissioned within the purview of the Collingwood ‘do better’ report, the scope of the report was to find out what experiences indigenous people had whilst being with the Hawks, which means questions were asked and the outcome of those questions are the allegations being made. It wasn’t a report to get to the bottom of the veracity of allegations on this scale, it was to relay experiences and make changes. Given the allegations are so serious, hawthorn gave it to the AFL to deal with from here. Clarkson and co. will now be able to address the allegations in the AFL investigation that has been announced and this investigation is where the veracity of what has been alleged will be addressed.

Give it time. It’ll come.

Murder and rape has been happening since the time of the first humans too. But we think it’s bad yeah? And it’s something that should be opposed, not apologised for or downplayed? Right? Because it would be weird to just say ‘colonisation is a thing that exists and has existed for a long time’ in a conversation about colonisation being a bad thing. Almost like you’re trying to make a point without actually coming out and saying it.

The Queen paid millions of pounds for her pedophile sons legal costs and then contributed a large proportion of the 12 million pound settlement. Pedophile son was then allowed to walk in the state funded funeral for the queen, some people yelled at the pedophile, for being a pedophile, and THEY were arrested. Seems like the current royal family was cool with letting the pedophile participate. Fun fact: there’s photos of the royals doing a Heil Hitler sign in the 30’s. Great people. Wonder why anybody would resent a minutes silence for them.

It would be a brave move to dismantle their strength which is their forward line. But hey, could be a genius move if UH lives up to his potential this year and Naughton plays as an all Australian back. I really rate Naughton so I don’t doubt if they made that move that could happen to be honest. I actually agree about still trying for Lobb regardless of Grundy if it can somehow happen. He draws so much attention from oppo defenders, can take marks like you said and if Gawn or Grundy go down (not impossible given age and injury past) he’s more than a useful ruckman. I’m probably dreaming but he, we can all dream.

I’m shocked they’re even looking at him. Surely the doggies should be going for key position defenders above everything else.

What’s the reason for our drop off of pressure? Our pressure was one of the highest things about our game last year, so how could we have allowed to to drop away so badly. We went from 3rd in 2021 to last this year I think. Is it a loss of will to run from players as they just expected to win? Are they less fit? Do these factors came down to a cultural thing? I genuinely don’t have answers myself.

Collingwood went from 17th to a possible prelim through a different game plan that accentuated their teams strengths. Geelong this year look way more dangerous by moving the ball quickly and making adjustments to suit the players they have. Hardwick went from his possible last year to 3 flags in a row. All of this happened by the coach changing what they do. Goodwin needs to change (in my opinion) to mitigate his very evident faults. His faults mostly stem from the fact that he is way too conservative on many levels. One is: His game plan puts too much emphasis on players that aren’t good enough to carry that weight. His rigid game plan continues that emphasis on these players. I’ve said it in another thread, but ANB plays an important role in our team. We are better when he is in the team weirdly. But, he is not a good enough player in his role to fulfill the role and be as effective as we need him to be. That’s because of our game plan. So, he can either bring in better players that are able to carry that weight, or change the game plan to suit the players he has at his disposal. He can either persist with the 1 plan he is and getting 3-4 better players he needs (isn’t going to happen) OR he can adjust the game plan and allow the team to operate at a higher efficiency.

Yup. The rigidity of the coaching and unwillingness to test players out of their position is first order what’s to blame. Petty being put up forward and almost winning the game… amazing what happens when we divert from Plan A and move players into other positions. We made a change to address our problematic forward line and bang, result. What could have been with more adventurous coaching in 2022. Oh well. On to 2023 I guess and for the love of God, can we PLEASE come up with a couple of 2nd or 3rd order game plans coaching staff?

Yeah fair, I didn’t mention our fitness but it seems an issue for sure. I honestly think that TMAC would make us a little bit better for sure… but he is not enough to address the player/strategy issues we have. I’m only mentioning curnow/Mackay/Elliot as a hypothetical answer as a reason to not change from game plan A. As in, it * could* work if we had players of that caliber, but we don’t, so it’s fanciful to continue, like you said, My point about the game plan is that we don’t make changes to accentuate the players we do have, we just plow ahead and hope we’re good enough to win instead of reacting to what’s happening in front of us.

I agree. We rely too much on players in important roles that don’t have the skill and we impose a singular game plan on top of that which doesn’t adjust.

Game plan: Goodwin has one game plan and doesn’t stray from it. It worked in 2021 because essentially all of our important players were in a purple patch of form ( Gawn kicking a winning goal against Geelong round 23 and kicking 5 in a prelim?) coming into finals with a team that had no injuries. He doesn’t change players up mid game in reaction to what’s happening in front of him like Longmire would do, he will just accept losses if we’re beaten. I don’t even know what the game day coach does to be honest. Can anyone identify what plan B is? Or what changes we’ve made this year mid game? Any at all. For example - relying on Gawn to take amazing amazing pack marks all around the ground. Hasn’t worked for many weeks so far and yet we just persist. Tonight we tried to do a switch play which I’ve been calling for, for the entire year. We have paddocks of space to use and we still just kick it up the ground relying on Gawn to mark it. Forward Line: I’ve been saying this ( like a million other people) for years. It’s [censored]. In big games it will cost us and lo and behold, it just cost us then. Kicking to Ben Brown who had to compete against packs of Brisbane defenders blah blah blah. The answer to this is ‘yes, but we’ve kicked such high scores before’. Which is only true when Game plan A is working. When it doesn’t? No change. Fritcsh is exactly like Gunston. Except he has no roughhead or buddy to play with and he isn’t being handed the kinds of deliveries that Hawks midfield of them, we’re getting. He was a cherry on top for the hawks, for us, he’s our roughhead and BBB is our buddy. No wonder we’re so dysfunctional. When we score highly, it’s when game plan A is working. WE DONT HAVE A FUNCTIONING FORWARD LINE AND HAVENT FOR OVER A DECADE. We *can* score heavily if everything goes our way, but if not, we don’t have a plan B so our forward line deficiency’s get exposed. Like it just was. Over hyped list based on last year: ANB is a good, solid player. He actually makes us better with him in the team. In saying that: our reliance on him is absurd considering how much of a liability he is to us. Same problem with Salem who doesn’t have the heart of ANB but is way more skilled. He is a ghost of the player he was last year. No damage at all and he’s just soft. sure he’s a great kick, but Rich who is a similar player, makes him look average because Rich ads defensive pressure, which Salem hasn’t been able to continue. Melksham again, the reliance on this guy for what he is, is ridiculous. He was never as good as what we expect him to be and because weideman hasn’t come through, well, he’s just next. Our forward line, coupled with no clear plan for them to work with from our coaches, is filled with out of position players that are seemingly filling holes on top of an over reliance on players that cannot be expected to be the players we want them to be. We dominate from the backline (anyone that criticises our backline is just deluded and shifting blame, they hardly ever lose unless we get smashed up the ground), we spend large parts of games getting repeat entries with not a lot of reward whether that is missing easy goals or KICKING IT TO THE POCKET WHERE 3-4 DEFENDERS KILL THE BALL. Again, sometimes this works, but when it doesn’t, what’s plan B? What changes do we make? Conclusion: Ok my main belief in change is game plan. Been saying it all year even when we win. Not making changes and being so predictable that every fan knows what we’re going to do, is the problem. Secondary to this, we don’t have the players to just persist with game plan A, when there are coaches out there much more creative that Goodwin, that can negate it. CASE IN POINT: Petty goes forward for the first time this year in the last 5 minutes of a season ending game and voila, he gets a goal the could’ve saved us. If we were to bring in Curnow, McKay, and replace ANB or Melksham with let’s say, a Jamie Elliot type player, then sure, keep with Plan A. But that’s not going to happen…. So maybe we try and change things up? Ill just ask this, what is the difference between last years game plan and this years? Can anyone tell me if there is a difference?

Gotta say, I really hate the umpire excuse. I hate it when all teams use it, but I especially hate it when we use it. Should have buried the game in the first quarter. Should have kicked another 5-6 goals easily throughout the game. We let them get easy goals at the ends of quarters. There’s the game right there. We absolutely choked and all ire should be directed at us for many reasons.

One my favourite facets of what makes some boxers great is heart. Taking punches and continuing to fight like all hell no matter the odds and just willing yourself to keep going. We’re going to need all the heart we can muster to beat Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood to get there. Doggies did it in 2016, no reason we can’t.

Thank you! Sydney I can understand, but Brisbane and Geelong not having harder repeat games compared to Collingwood considering the final season draw isn’t announced until what, round 16? I could very well be wrong, but to me however you split it, a 17th finishing Collingwood should not have played more of the top 6 sides than Geelong or Brisbane.

After finishing 17th last year, how did Collingwood play more games against the current top 6 teams than Geelong AND Brisbane that finished in a prelim??????????

Sydney had a player ready to tackle or ready to receive a handball in every single contest. They were roving off our rucks. They obviously spent a lot of time focussing on systems and intensity around the ball. We didn’t have time to make good decisions.

The only problem with the whole crowd issue is: We’ve won 11 (I think) interstate games in a row. Logic would say that’s improbable given we would have no crowd presence away from the G… I agree that our home supporters (NOT THE CHEER SQUAD) are meek and frankly pathetic in trying to create noise to get behind the team. It’s really embarrassing.