Scoop Junior

I hope he gets off. It would be very helpful for us if the Cats beat the Swans. Perhaps that's the third category of suspensions from the MRP: 1) If you are a Melbourne player, you get rubbed out. 2) If you hit a Melbourne player, you get off. 3) If you are playing a competitor for Melbourne's position on the ladder, you get rubbed out.

Surprised so many have rated Watts' game over Oliver's. We were getting belted in the clearances in the first half and Oliver was one of the keys for us in getting the ascendancy in that area in the second half. His last quarter was fantastic. With enormous pressure, fatigued bodies and a greasy ball, he was one of the few who could cleanly pick it up off the deck in traffic and get the ball going forward for us. As for Watts, I thought it was more of a "moments" game from him, especially the last quarter goal and then the touched ball on the line. He was also on Howe in the first half and was beaten. I'm not saying he didn't contribute, he had a decent game and did well to come back from an early injury. And no doubt his class in the key moment in the last quarter was telling. But for me it was the turnaround in the contest and at the stoppages (and then the run from guys like Hunt) that turned the game around and Oliver was a big part of this.

The most annoying thing is how predictable it all is. Come out half-hearted against an out-of-form side, allow them early goals to get their confidence and belief going and find ourselves well behind early in the game. Then turn it on when hope seems gone, come roaring back into the match but fail to finish the job and lose a nailbiter. I reckon I've seen this movie 20 times. I hated it the first time and I hated it today. We keep coming back for more but the script doesn't change. Over and over and over again we play teams near the bottom who are down on confidence and we fail to come out switched on from the outset. I would love to be surprised for once and to see us land some big blows early against these sides but it doesn't happen. We lost to drug-banned Essendon last year but learned nothing and we continue to fail to show up when expected to win. There are some real attitude problems that we just cannot, at the moment, get over. We've improved our list, our talent, our skill (not there yet but better), our hardness, etc. But we really are miles off it mentally. I said the same thing after the Freo game when we failed to get men back in the last few minutes. Great teams find a way to win, we simply find ways to lose. We are just so good at it. If the aim in football was to extract defeat from winnable positions we'd be the reigning triple Premiers. And it's no surprise our best quarter was the third. The pressure was off as there was no expectation to win being 6 goals down. Then once again as soon as we drew level in the last and the expectation was we would run over them, we fail to go on with it. I'm sick of the youth excuse. We had enough senior players out there today to lead the way. They've had these lessons before and they've learned nothing. I'm quite happy with our physical development so far this year but mentally we are really falling well short of the mark. We need to find some answers.

We've got an interesting recent history against Essendon. In four of the last five games against them, the strong favourite has lost. We beat them in 2012 when we were pretty dire and then again in 2014 when we were improving but only won 4 games for the year. The 2014 win was a robbery - they squandered chance after chance and we played one good quarter at the end and won by a point off Salem's match-winning goal. In 2015 they beat us at the G despite being thrashed in recent games and approaching the end of the Hird tenure. They were close to a rabble at the time but we kicked poorly in the wet. Then last year, without half a side, they somehow knocked us off. Essendon will be strong favourites this time around. It's difficult to be optimistic for this one but let's hope the recent trend of results against them continues. We definitely owe them for the last two embarrassing losses against them.

Yep, agree - it's the mature body that is key. Not so much an issue at centre bounces where you can jump, but at around the ground ball ups and boundary throw ins a young body will get rag-dolled, particularly late in games. Watts was serviceable at stoppages until the last quarter in the Geelong and Richmond games. He was out on his feet and he has done 8 or 9 pre-seasons! I remember a game in 2013 when we beat the Bulldogs (1 of 2 wins for the year). A young Max Gawn (5th season on the list) rucked against Will Minson. Gawn played a really good game but was spent at 3/4 time and was rag-dolled by Minson in the last quarter. The Dogs came back from about 7 goals down and lost by 3 points. We need a fit, strong, mature body and a second year player coming off an ACL and one game at Casey is not currently the answer.

Yep - three really frustrating losses in a row. At least with the Geelong came we could blame our poor kicking for goal and the Freo game our third quarter, but I feel as though last night was just taken away from us by factors totally outside our control. We did so much right for three quarters and you could see the frustration on the faces of the Richmond supporters as their side was once again falling apart in the big moment. To then see them being able to celebrate a win and enjoy being 5-0 while we go home losers and three games behind them - it was a devastating loss. And to see us just get destroyed in the last quarter by hitouts to advantage (same versus Geelong), when we know with Gawn fit that this is our greatest strength, is painful to watch. It won't get better any time soon, either.

There are some seriously silly posts on this thread. How can anyone have a go at the players for losing that one. "Injuries no excuse"...are you serious? This is a game played by humans, they are not robots. In a high intensity, high pressure game, to lose two players before half time and have another one hobbling in the goal square, it makes it extremely difficult. Add in the fact your no1 ruck is out, then your second ruck goes down before half time, how can you possibly compete on a level playing field? And they are not playing mugs, they are playing a team of elite professional athletes, with 22 fit players. There was nothing more predictable than Richmond running over the top of us. You could see it late in the third. By all means be frustrated. I am. It's excruciating to know you have a good side, a side in my view that is clearly a class above Richmond, but due solely to bad luck they have beaten us. We outplayed them for three quarters despite our injuries and they only crept past us at the end. Richmond should get no credit for tonight. That was a Steven Bradbury win if I've ever seen one. Them being 5-0 and us 2-3 is about as illusory as ladder positions get. Unfortunately we've just copped a shocking run of luck so far this year and in an even competition it can be the difference between finishing 5th or 15th. We finally have a good side capable of getting results and we just haven't had a fair go. But be frustrated at that. Don't just assume this was an avoidable fade out that the players should take responsibility for. They were fantastic tonight and deserved the four points.

There were clearly a lot of mistakes at the end and that's what angered me the most. Despite playing fairly poorly for most of the day, having two pivotal players out in Gawn and Hogan and conceding 7 goals without reply in the third quarter, the fact is we hit the front with three minutes to go in the game. And we still couldn't close it out. They talk about learning and development but what have we learnt in terms of holding onto leads? Two years ago we couldn't even hold onto a lead with 40 seconds left against St Kilda. Montagna walked into an unguarded goal and kicked the winner. Of all the types of goals that can be kicked, the one that just should not happen in those circumstances is an open goal from the goal square. We failed to put numbers back and threw the game away. They said we'd learn from that and not make those mistakes again. Yet how did Freo score their last goal? McCarthy runs onto the ball at the back of the pack and into an open goal square. How can you leave the defensive side of a defensive 50 contest open when you are a few points up with under 2 minutes to play. It's just inexcusable at Under 12s level let alone AFL. I'm not saying we should have sent 5 men back, but surely you stick two players back, with one sweeping up defensive side of the contest. In these situations you simply have to force the opposition to do something special to win the game - take a pack mark, kick a 55m goal, etc. If Sandilands marks over four players and kicks the match winner, well you just have to cop it. But letting them run onto a loose ball and into an open goal is unfathomable. So it seems we learned nothing from the St Kilda game. Did anyone in the backline call players back after we hit the front? Did Jones or Viney yell at a few forwards to go down into defence? Do we even have plans to deal with these situations or do we just play aggressively all the time? We have been hard and tough this year and have shown great effort, but we are a long way away in terms of footy smarts and composure.

The relevance of Carlton is to illustrate that another club engaged in similar conduct yet were never investigated like we were. I think your suggestion was that we took it to comical levels - but the argument is that Carlton already did this and they were not investigated, so why were we?

Exactly right. You cannot re-write history by applying today's thinking to the public sentiment back in the mid 2000s. Not only was tanking not seen as evil, it was actually described by many to be the only logical course of action for clubs in that position. I remember reading newspaper articles containing comments such as "it would be bordering on negligence for [relevant Club] to win an irrelevant end of season game and miss out on another top 5 pick" and "it is in the best interests of [relevant club] to lose its remaining few games and help set up their future with elite young talent". Ironically these same journalists then condemned us a few years down the track for doing exactly what they were telling us to do. Not only did the AFL set up the inducement through the priority pick system, but they allowed "tanking" by failing to address it when clubs started taking advantage of the system. Instead, we were told by the AFL that tanking does not exist and that it is okay to send players in for season-ending surgeries halfway through the year (Collingwood), play players out of position (Fremantle) and drag your match-winning full forward from the ground when he looked set to win you the match (Carlton). It could have all been dealt with by a simple change to the rules to remove the inducement as well as an acknowledgement that there was a strong perception of tanking that the AFL did not want and the rule changes would help remove this. But the AFL did nothing. To allow it to go on and then selectively investigate (and punish certain officials from) one of the clubs that did it is nothing short of disgraceful.

You mean we did what 5-6 other clubs did around that time, that was ruled by the head of the AFL as being acceptable, and in a time where the wider footy public would say comments such as "why would you want to win a meaningless game at the end of the season?"

The flaw in this type of argument has been exposed numerous times before. The only way you get to the bottom is by your own doing. Whether it's poor coaching, poor recruiting, poor development, poor culture, poor management, etc. - the reason you find yourself winning 3 games in a season is typically going to be due to mistakes that your club has made. You mention problems about Brisbane's location - I didn't see these issues getting raised when they won 3 premierships in a row with one of the best teams we've ever seen! When we applied for a PP we had won 34 games in 7 years. Brisbane have won 45 in their previous 7 years (plus 32 in the three years from 2007-2009). There is absolutely no justification for Brisbane to get a PP based on us being denied one.

I remember a few weeks ago Cyril flying for a mark and getting very high. He didn't take the mark. They showed the replay and he basically used his hands to climb all over the man in front in order to get up so high. It was a clear free kick yet all the Channel 7 commentators did was fawn over him and say how high he got and how incredible the mark would have been. "Oh Cyril this, Cyril that" They did not mention once that it was a clear free kick to his opponent. After Saturday I wonder if the umpires suffer from the same Cyril obsession as Bruce and his fellow Channel 7 commentators. No free kick for flattening Oliver high and then he receives a free kick himself. Later in the quarter he then basically jumped on Neville Jetta and put an arm around his neck - no free for Jetta. Then later on again, Rioli clearly ducked into a tackle and incredibly received a free for too high. Are they all just drooling over Cyril that they can't see him do any wrong? For what it's worth I love watching Rioli and he's a sensational footballer. But I can be objective and recognise when he clearly infringes.

Still struggling to believe what I saw at the G yesterday! It was a fantastic performance all day long, but those final 15 minutes were something else. I can't remember seeing a Melbourne side like that - the hunt, the run, the ferocity, the desire, the clean ball handling, the finishing in front of goal. It just all came together and the power of the momentum generated just swept Hawthorn away. Even with scores level in the final quarter, and the champion on the ropes and looking wobbly, you could just see Hawthorn finding a way to get over the line. You couldn't help but think this way having witnessed the Hawks thrash us and bully us year after year for the last 10 years. But the young challenger said "not this time" and just walked straight up to the champion and delivered a ferocious knock-out blow. It was incredible. Some of the passages of play were also symbolic of our attitude. Viney side-stepping Lewis and just running away from him. Oliver and Viney out-pointing one of the great clearance players of recent times in Mitchell. Petracca holding off Burgoyne with one arm and marking with the other. Watts spinning out of a Hodge tackle and giving a semi-don't argue before passing off to Tyson for the sealer. How we've waited for the time when we are no longer intimidated by the Hawks. And it was just as sweet as we thought it would be.

It's never good to lose a player of Jack's importance, but I disagree in relation to the timing. I think the timing of the injury may not be as bad as it could've been. In the next month, we have the bye, Hawks, Swans (SCG) and Pies. With the bye he misses only three games instead of four. You would also think we'd be fairly long odds to beat the Hawks and Swans even with Viney. So for me he is only missing one 50-50 game (Pies) when it could've been four. And the Pies have their fair share of injuries as well.

I also found it somewhat strange that Greg Baum questioned the decision to let Viney off (the MRP ruling that it was an open hand to the chest) on the basis that in his view the head is sacrosanct and that "Viney's lunge landed much nearer to Rance's jaw than his chest". So on this view, I suppose Greg Baum would also believe that a goal should be awarded if the ball hits the inside of the goal post because the ball landed closer to the goals than the points.

100% spot on. Unfortunately the comment that supporter negativity affects the players is a complete failure to recognise the cause and effect relationship as Dr Gonzo has set out. Even still, I would argue Melbourne supporters are incredibly positive and optimistic compared to a lot of other clubs. Considering what we have been through in recent times, we still get big numbers to our AGM / info night in February, supporters I speak to during the pre-season are generally optimistic about the season ahead, we have decent attendances at pre-season training, huge interest in training reports and off-season news and good crowds to our early season games (who can forget the noise generated at the GC game in Round 1). Many other clubs' fans would have given up by now if they were served up what we have been served the last 9 years. What I will admit is Melbourne supporters are probably quick to pounce on a terrible performance, but that's only because we have seen far, far too many of them in recent times. And once again it's the performance which drives the supporter reaction, not the other way around.

Agree - he has also perfected the reckless jump into the pack without noticing that a Melbourne player is about to take an uncontested mark. He did it to Gawn in the last quarter which led to Cripps' sealing goal. For a player who showed so much promise and has now been at the club for nearly 10 years, it's simply astonishing that he has gone backwards as a player. I think the game plan is pretty clear. It has been evident in our good performances. It is heavily based on the contest and relies on intensity at the ball, winning the contested footy and putting pressure on / tackling the opposition. I don't mind this style of footy as that is how finals are played and won. The Richmond and Bulldogs games this year are good examples of us nailing our game style. The problem is when we don't bring the right mindset we get exposed. Badly exposed. We don't have the class to compensate for a drop off in intensity. At these times the game style completely falls apart - there is not a coach in the world who can get his team to play well when the fundamentals of the game plan are so disgracefully neglected. I don't think it's a fair criticism of Roos to say we don't have a game plan. However, it is fair to say that at this stage he has not been able to implement it consistently enough. I can understand a few bad games over the course of a season but we have had far too many and they're not just bad games, they're downright disgusting performances. Whether the coach or players are responsible for this can be debated, but for me it's a player issue and especially a senior leadership issue. For example, where was the intent at the start of the game yesterday? We were playing the bottom side and there wasn't a hint of aggression - it took until the third quarter for a player (Jones) to come off the line and take someone out in the centre, for Dunn to get aggressive with Watson, for the team to lay some crunching tackles. It should happen right at the start! What did Lumumba do to set a physical tone? What did Garland do? To me it just showed pure disinterest on the part of the players and a complete lack of respect for the supporters. PJ has spoken about winning trust back from the fans. I trust the club, but I've just about lost trust in our playing group (primarily the senior players as a whole as it's not the job of the younger ones to set the tone). 5 tackles in the first quarter. In my mind I'm actually starting to divorce many of the players from the club. They are not the MFC, they are just temporarily representing it. I love the club and always will - but I don't have to love many of the blokes who are disgracing the club with their insipid performances.

I'm a huge Roos fan but it took way too long then to make the move. You can't just let a team continue to play the game on their terms, you need to react and try to force them into changing their thinking.

Was calling for the loose man after the first 4 goals to clog up their forward line and force them to change their plans. All their goals came from quick breaks to an open forward line. It took us until 8 goals down to make the move! Absolutely pathetic - how many people in our box? I'm not excusing the players who have been terrible but that is just a disgraceful lack of tactical nous

Out of interest I wonder if many people that voted were at the game (there weren't many Melbourne supporters there!). I say that because only a few people have given Dunn votes, yet I thought he was sensational in the way he controlled the backline. He was an absolute beast today - always in the right spot, getting a hand in the way to thwart Collingwood, calm and composed under pressure and directing others around him. I know he wasn't up against much but to me he was really significant in us holding Collingwood to 7 goals and ultimately winning the game. A lot of what he did may not have been as obvious on TV as it was at the ground. But from my perspective at the ground today, he was clearly in our best six.

Gee we're lucky to have a coach like Paul Roos at our club. Yet still there are some who heavily criticise him after poor performances. I defended him last week and today again showed that he is a great coach who is getting a lot out of our team. We are still far from a great side (at the moment), but Roos has turned us into an outfit that, when our intensity is up, can be competitive against most sides ranked 6 to 18. That is an enormous step from where we were at the end of 2013, a side that could barely compete with anyone. We will still lose out at times to classier sides but when we can bring our best against these middle ranked sides and they are slightly off we can win games. Roos has steered us to our first win in SA since 2001 (against Adelaide last year), our first win against Carlton since 2007 (also last year), our first win against Geelong since 2006 and our first win against the Pies since 2007. These were all pretty significant results. And let's not forget we were 40 seconds from our first win at Docklands since 2007. From where this club was at he has done a great job. Yet still some want him out for the 2016 season and question whether he can coach. Unbelievable.

I just cannot accept all the Roos criticism. You can't just fluke a premiership. His Sydney team were famous for their consistency, their adherence to the game plan, their "buy in" to their coach's message and their intensity out on the field. The bloke is a fantastic leader and he knows how to coach. I also cannot accept the comments from those who suggest he is just a mercenary and doesn't really care about the club. What are they basing this on - his press conferences? Roos is a master at handling the press. He doesn't want to inflame the situation by getting angry and singling out players in public. He is too smart for this. He would do it all behind closed doors and out of the public eye. If you would prefer a coach that rants and raves and brings unwanted publicity then go hire a hothead - for me, I would take Roos' ability to stay measured and level-headed in a press conference every day of the week. Now that's not to say there haven't been tactical errors. The loose man against Collingwood, the last 41 seconds against St Kilda, overuse of the footy in our defensive half of the ground yesterday...I can accept that there have been tactical errors. However, as I said after the Essendon game, the reason for our woeful performances is the mental fragility of our players and our overall lack of class. In other words, it's the players. We cannot consistently bring our intensity week-to-week. When we bring it, and match the opposition in the contest and tackles, we can compete with most teams from about 6th down to 18th. We might and probably will lose out on class but if one of those teams is slightly off, like Richmond, Geelong and the Dogs were, we can snatch an upset. However, when we don't bring it, given our skill/class levels are terribly low, we get shown up by even lowly teams like Essendon and St Kilda. Hawthorn can be off their intensity and still win out on the back of their class. When you are a team devoid of class like us, your attitude and intensity must be 100% to be able to compete. People criticise our defensive game plan but what difference would an attacking one make. Based on the current skill level of the team, not much at all. We still have chances to score but we kick inaccurately (21.40 the last three weeks). We butcher the inside 50m kick. We start a chain of possession from half back and turn it over. All of this affects our ability to score and it all comes down to skill, not the game plan. Even when we are on top in games, our lack of class means we can't convert the dominance on the scoreboard. Who currently gives us drive and precision kicking off half back? I can only think of Salem and he's out injured. Who gives us sheer pace and run and carry through the middle? Who nails targets with inside 50 kicks? Who other than a first-year player is a viable marking option inside 50? This is why we struggle to score. We need players that are both desperate and aggressive and have the requisite level of skill. We simply don't have enough. And we will continue to be a poor footy team until we get them (and the young talent that we have who do display these attributes fully develop).

There have been plenty of excellent comments made on this thread, including those that have pointed at our failings and those that have highlighted our improvement. The comments I don't agree with however are those criticising Roos. I think he has been fantastic for this footy club in helping to stabilise the decline, correct the culture, make the club more attractive and, in terms of on-field work, instil a much harder and competitive style of footy and improve effort levels dramatically. Yes there have been games and patches in games where our effort has been down, but from where we were at in 2013 it's a huge improvement. Nevertheless, the two areas I think are really hurting us and were the reasons why I feared the Essendon game (and why we ultimately lost) are our mental fragility and overall lack of class. On the first point, this is not something new with the MFC, and there have been plenty of comments in here about how for years we have lost the 'unloseable' games. What really frustrates me however is just the inability of our players to learn. Now I know many of them weren't out there in previous years where we've lost such games, but many of them were there in the NAB Challenge where, in remarkably similar circumstances, we got done by Essendon's VFL team. Surely, after that, the players would have approached Saturday's game fully aware of the possibility of losing unless we were on top of our game. Yet despite this we came out just expecting it to happen, thinking we could work half as hard as we did against Geelong and get the points. What on earth is going through our players' heads that results in them coming out with that mindset? It is just mind-boggling that a team that has been as bad as ours for so long can think they can just rock up and get the win against another AFL team. I could understand the Hawks or Swans falling into this trap, but not us. There was a period in the second term where we had Essendon on the ropes. A good side would have just finished them off then and there. However, we continually fail to take these opportunities to put sides away and then, slowly, they start to gain confidence and grow into the game and run over the top of us. We will not get anywhere as a team until we can develop a mindset where we can approach a game versus a bottom side with the same intensity and desire as a game against a top team. On the second point, I think a key reason why we keep dropping these games is our overall lack of class. We don't get reward for dominant periods of play the way the good sides do. We were all over Essendon in the second and fourth quarters but just struggled to convert that on the scoreboard. Obviously the poor inside 50s and the woeful kicking for goal affects that, but we just don't have enough class in our side to capitalise on our dominance. This is also the main reason why we fall short against the top teams. Under Roos we have become a side that can scrap it out and be really competitive on the inside, but we just get destroyed on the outside by the quicker, slicker opposition. The same thing happened against Brisbane last year. We were on top in general play for three quarters but just could not put them away. Then they stormed home and beat us. Also in Round 1 last year against the Saints where we were the better side but just could not convert on that dominance and they beat us with one big surge in the third quarter. Until we can add that class to our mix (which thankfully some of our youngsters have) we will continue to struggle to put away lowly sides. So forget about blaming Roos and coaching tactics. At the end of the day it shouldn't really come down to little things like tactics. A mentally stronger Melbourne side with some more class would have easily accounted for Essendon yesterday irrespective of things like a loose man in defence. This is what we need to focus on.

Coaching staff error for me. I refuse to believe the players knew there were 40 seconds left and elected not to flood back. I cannot accept that experienced players like Cross and Lumumba wouldn't have called others back if they knew how long was left. 10-year olds know to do that. These blokes are experienced AFL players. Lynch may have confirmed that the message went out with 40 seconds to go but it was too late then. The mistake was not alerting the players when there were 2-3 minutes left. I don't think I've ever seen a team hit the lead in the last minute and retain a 6 man forward line. It simply has to be because the players were unaware how much time was left. This was the coaching version of Fitzy's tunnel ball.