By your list, neither Garland and Frawley are established AFL players. Martin is a punt and Warnock could not crack a game last year despite the injuries. He is doubtful for AFL. So there is a 1 to 2 year time gap that Holland can fill while these player come on. None of the others you mentioned who have gone could have done that and were rightly moved on.

Holland was selected for an impact now not in the future. The fact that no one has selected him highlights that the average supporter knows less than the DB! B)

No Frawley and Garland are not 'established' players. Either is Newton for that matter. But most of us have him ahead of Miller who is 'established' or at least more 'established'!

My point is you don't know what players are capable of until they are given opputunities. That includes Warnock who was also injured in the latter half of last year if you remember.

2008 is not about playing 'established' players. It is about developing our list so those players I mentioned have an opputunity to 'establish' themselves.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not totally against Holland being on the list. I just think that at 31, the fact nobody considers him good enough to make up our spine, back or forward, is interesting.

No Frawley and Garland are not 'established' players. Either is Newton for that matter. But most of us have him ahead of Miller who is 'established' or at least more 'established'!

My point is you don't know what players are capable of until they are given opputunities. That includes Warnock who was also injured in the latter half of last year if you remember.

2008 is not about playing 'established' players. It is about developing our list so those players I mentioned have an opputunity to 'establish' themselves.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not totally against Holland being on the list. I just think that at 31, the fact nobody considers him good enough to make up our spine, back or forward, is interesting.

Longer term he isn't. I would be disappointed if one of the players you mentioned did not step up in the next two years. I also think Carroll is warming a spot for someone else in the side. Warnock has been on the list for four years. I think the Club has had sufficient opporutunities to evaluate him. He is capable at VFL but I dont think he is AFL level standard. I think the fact that we have turned over a large number of mature age NQR players has given him another year on the list.

2008 like any year is about putting your best team on the park whoever they are. BTW, I would not rank Holland an established player. He is in the mix with the rest of the players you mentioned. Anyway for side that finished 14th I think every player needs to earn their keep and establish their credentials.

BTW, I would not rank Holland an established player. He is in the mix with the rest of the players you mentioned.

Yes at age 31 and after 12 years of AFL he isn't established. Exactly why I probably would have delisted him.

all the valid points made on this forum about our spine is why we will finish 9-12 in 2008

Yes at age 31 and after 12 years of AFL he isn't established. Exactly why I probably would have delisted him.

He is there to fulfil a short term role while others develop. Had either Garland or Frawley had been ready now then you would probably be right.

holland differs from godfrey, ward, brown and pickett in that he is a tall and these are shorts. we have lots of young shorts ready to grab those spots meaning they were not required.

bizzell - 3rd tall at best, floating medium defender at worst. past his best after a serious injury.

ferguson - tall defender, no strength, weak third tall at best.

neither of those players would be competing with holland for a spot in our side at any stage. if the skipper doesnt get up one week, holland can play at FF. holland can pinch hit at FB and CHF or take the third tall/resting ruckman. he has more versatility and we dont have many players who play his role, thus he has been retained as depth.

Another thing not mentioned is that you have to manage your deletions because you have to make three every year.

If you got rid of everyone you wanted to, then what the next year...get rid of 1st year players? Move on people who may have something left to give?

Yes at age 31 and after 12 years of AFL he isn't established. Exactly why I probably would have delisted him.

Would it have been worth delisting him and getting pick 70 in the draft, or another PSD pick?

You can't turn over the whole list in one season.