30 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

So where does he rate amongst all onballers for last year?   I am looking currently at footywire and can't seem to make that filter/comparison.  Realistically i have him as our 3rd best onballer....doubt he would be the number one at any of the other teams.

Edited February 2, 20214 yr by waynewussell

32 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

So where does he rate amongst all onballers for last year?   I am looking currently at footywire and can't seem to make that filter/comparison.  Realistically i have him as our 3rd best onballer....doubt he would be the number one at any of the other teams.

Sorry, NeveroddoreveN... I tried to post Axis of Bob's excellent analysis post from days gone by, not sure I succeeded... however, highly recommended when discussing Viney's worth.

1 hour ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Just looked up clangers count from last season.  

We have 3 players within the top 20 which is not a good stat to have.

3. Clayton Oliver    69 total clangers.

12. Christian Petracca   60 clangers.

18 Jack Viney   55 clangers.

Looking at previous years appears to be much the same in terms of clangers.  Need to find ways to be much cleaner from what is supposedly a very good midfield.

Adding turnover counts....

Equal 4th.  Christian Petracca   84 turnovers for 2020

8. Jack Viney   80 turnovers

19 Clayton Oliver    77 turnovers

Harmes/Brayshaw right up on these lists when they play onball too.  We basically have bunch of onballers that undo a lot of their good work with careless skill errors and turnovers.  Until we clean these areas up i don't think we will go far.

But Cotchin and Martin are 1 and 2 and Bolton and M.Pickett are in the top 20, using your logic the Tigers must have finished last in 2020. All the top players are going to be high on the clanger list becuase they get so much of the ball, those that try and be creative, Martin, Trac, Danger, Bont etc. will make mistakes, while Oliver, Cripps, Adams etc. who win the ball in close and try to use it qucikly will also be impacted. Yes we need to be cleaner, but moreso on the outside,  in the delivery into fwd50 and there's clearly been a lot of work done on that area so far this pre-season.

11 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

But Cotchin and Martin are 1 and 2 and Bolton and M.Pickett are in the top 20, using your logic the Tigers must have finished last in 2020. All the top players are going to be high on the clanger list becuase they get so much of the ball, those that try and be creative, Martin, Trac, Danger, Bont etc. will make mistakes, while Oliver, Cripps, Adams etc. who win the ball in close and try to use it qucikly will also be impacted. Yes we need to be cleaner, but moreso on the outside,  in the delivery into fwd50 and there's clearly been a lot of work done on that area so far this pre-season.

i wonder how those 3 players rank in also in the total posessions stat? A better measure would be % of clangers per disposal or something to that tune. Using the raw # of clangers to measure a players inability to dispose effectively is like using the number of free throws made for basketball players as a true indication of their conversion at the free throw line (hence why we have Free Throw %).

 

I am 100% in agreement that they still need to tidy up that part of their game, because could you imagine for a moment what a beast of a team we would become if just Trac & Oliver became better ball users!!

 

 

8 minutes ago, CYB said:

i wonder how those 3 players rank in also in the total posessions stat? A better measure would be % of clangers per disposal or something to that tune. Using the raw # of clangers to measure a players inability to dispose effectively is like using the number of free throws made for basketball players as a true indication of their conversion at the free throw line (hence why we have Free Throw %).

 

I am 100% in agreement that they still need to tidy up that part of their game, because could you imagine for a moment what a beast of a team we would become if just Trac & Oliver became better ball users!!

 

 

Spot on, and then a break down on their type of disposal as well (contested vs uncontested), in my quick look (no analysis) Oliver, Trac and Viney are all top 20 for contested possessions. In fact Lachie Neale stands out as the number 1 disposal winner but isn't in the top 20 for clangers, whereas I think the rest of the top 20 are there. They clean it up a bit and we clean up big time!!

2 hours ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Just looked up clangers count from last season.  

We have 3 players within the top 20 which is not a good stat to have.

3. Clayton Oliver    69 total clangers.

12. Christian Petracca   60 clangers.

18 Jack Viney   55 clangers.

Looking at previous years appears to be much the same in terms of clangers.  Need to find ways to be much cleaner from what is supposedly a very good midfield.

Adding turnover counts....

Equal 4th.  Christian Petracca   84 turnovers for 2020

8. Jack Viney   80 turnovers

19 Clayton Oliver    77 turnovers

Harmes/Brayshaw right up on these lists when they play onball too.  We basically have bunch of onballers that undo a lot of their good work with careless skill errors and turnovers.  Until we clean these areas up i don't think we will go far.

Totals is never a great way to work it out.

If you go by averages then it's:

Clangers

6. Oliver

17. Petracca

20. Viney

Ahead of Oliver are Yeo, Cotchin, O'Meara, Dusty and Brad Crouch, so perhaps it's not a great singular stat to judge players by.

Turnovers

2. Viney

3. Petracca

Equal 17th. Oliver

Above Oliver are players like Prestia, Sicily, Treloar, Shiels, Tim Kelly, Crouch, O'Meara, Gaff, Martin & Cotchin. I'd say Prestia, Martin & Cotchin is a midfield that has had some success.

Now I agree our skill level and decision making needs to improve, but I don't think judging inside mids by these selective stats is very fair, and while it's 100% an issue, it might be a bit broader than those 3 players, especially given their roles.

Our forward 50 delivery has clearly been our biggest issue for a few years, and while Viney & Oliver would feature in that, let's also add that players like Melksham, Langdon, Brayshaw and Fritsch, all players who are often delivering inside 50 after receiving from the inside mids, all feature high up on the stats you have brought up also.

Also worth mentioning that vandenBerg has an average of 1 clanger per 4 disposals. Viney's average is 1 in 6.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Now I agree our skill level and decision making needs to improve, but I don't think judging inside mids by these selective stats is very fair, and while it's 100% an issue, it might be a bit broader than those 3 players, especially given their roles.

Our forward 50 delivery has clearly been our biggest issue for a few years, and while Viney & Oliver would feature in that, let's also add that players like Melksham, Langdon, Brayshaw and Fritsch, all players who are often delivering inside 50 after receiving from the inside mids, all feature high up on the stats you have brought up also.

Also worth mentioning that vandenBerg has an average of 1 clanger per 4 disposals. Viney's average is 1 in 6.

 

 

Definitely broader than just these three players, the whole team needs a bit of cohesion, to work a bit harder, to be a lot smarter with and without the ball.  Watching us against the Doggies was painful last year.  They had a simple plan and we just coughed it up repeatedly.  Could sense the frustration from Petracca that day as he tried valiantly to lift the team by doing too much, but ultimately he too had no counter to their tactics either.  They just let us win the ball at Max's feet, cover all options and strangle us to cough it up.  They had the outsides covered every time,  it happened throughout the entire game. 

More than anything i really feel we have the players to be highly competitive.  Well we should. Our gameplan and tactics for matchday have been lacking for a while i reckon.  I am bullish that Yze and Williams are going to get the place in order. A gameplan, development of players, and tactics for each opposition, we should be finals bound.

VandenBerg was woeful last year, i really felt like he was fifty-fifty proposition by hand or foot.  Was almost laughable at times under no pressure.  Previous years i thought he was pretty decent in that regard, something changed this year though, and he had lost quite a lot of his pace i thought too.  Viney 1 in 6 seems pretty high.  Theoretically he gets 24 disposals, but murders 4 of them. Viney will be much better once we have a solid system in place...our whole team should be!

 

 

We should have let Viney go to the CATS, we would have something to laugh about.