Just been in reading Ben Collin's 'Champions' book about Denis Pagan. Seems that Pagan applied for the Melbourne senior job only for the board to go with Balme, with the decision being made even before interviewing him.

Despite his recent record, Pagan IMO was the coach of the 90's with 2 flags and something like 6 prelims, only Malthouse can challenge on degree of difficulty being based on the West Coast.

Would he have been able to get the best out of talents such as Pike & Charles? Could he have developed a young Neitz into a Carey like presence? Would he have kept dead wood like Kowal / Molloy around? Would he have been able to keep the team focused during the board turmoil around the merger / Joe years?

IMHO, it's a given he would have got more out of the list than Balme but my question is, do you think he could have taken our early 90's list to a flag?

Just been in reading Ben Collin's 'Champions' book about Denis Pagan. Seems that Pagan applied for the Melbourne senior job only for the board to go with Balme, with the decision being made even before interviewing him.

Despite his recent record, Pagan IMO was the coach of the 90's with 2 flags and something like 6 prelims, only Malthouse can challenge on degree of difficulty being based on the West Coast.

Would he have been able to get the best out of talents such as Pike & Charles? Could he have developed a young Neitz into a Carey like presence? Would he have kept dead wood like Kowal / Molloy around? Would he have been able to keep the team focused during the board turmoil around the merger / Joe years?

IMHO, it's a given he would have got more out of the list than Balme but my question is, do you think he could have taken our early 90's list to a flag?

Both Malthouse and Pagan were blessed with teams that had the quality to win multiple flags. They both coached well when a team list is strong. Neither in my opinion have successfully built a list from scratch and their efforts to date at their current clubs places a question mark over their coaching records.

On that basis I dont believe Pagan would have necessarily had any more profound effect on Neitz and other players then other coaches. It should be remember that Carey was Wayne Carey and Neitz was going to be his own footballer and not another Carey.

Pike actually played in a premiership at North so it can be argued that Pike did achieve/mature under Pagan as part of a successful side.

Pagan has shown by the list he has assembled and maintained at Carlton that he carries a significant level of garbage there. His cause has not been helped to great extent by the dyfunctional disaster known as the Carlton Board. A divided and dysfunctional board is a cancer for on field success.

Balme had his issues, but no coach can hope to succeed with long term injuries to players like Schwartz, Lyon, Charles, Prymke, Tingay, G Lovett, Jakovich on top of the normal run of the mill injuries.

IMHO

Pagan is an 'old school' coach and has a reputation for 'cracking heads'. I don't think he managed to 'crack' Pike. Don't forget he did moved him on!

Jackovich, Scwarz et al. were, I feel, a much harder nuts to crack than Pike. Pagan could have had a very short senior coaching career if he had been picked up by Melbourne.

FWIW

History will show that Balme was ahead of his time with his 'possesion' game plan. Unfotunately the skill level required right accross the entire playing list to play such a style didn't catch up with that game style until a decade later.

GO NDees

Pagan should kiss Wayne Carey's feet as he is the reason why he won the premierships.

Balme had his issues, but no coach can hope to succeed with long term injuries to players like Schwartz, Lyon, Charles, Prymke, Tingay, G Lovett, Jakovich on top of the normal run of the mill injuries.

I would have counted it as a success if the players had ONLY had a go and ONLY seemed to know what they were supposed to do. Ring-a-ring-a-rosie, handball-it-through-the-goals.

History will show that Balme was ahead of his time with his 'possesion' game plan. Unfotunately the skill level required right accross the entire playing list to play such a style didn't catch up with that game style until a decade later.

Yep, Balmy was truly barmy. And not guilty by reason of insanity. It is as if we had been playing the Roos and he said "Kick it long to Carey". How long do you need to see that what you are trying to do is not working? Two and half years at least. Unfortunately, Joe terminated the experimant. It like wating for your membership; you do not particularly care but are interested in seeing if it is going beat the 10 weeks from the previous year.

Speaking of excuses, Fred Mcginis is going alright for a guy who has been dead for 50 years, but I am not sure if he will pull up OK for the pre-season comp.

Focus MFC!! Swooper good; Balme by1995 bad. It is unacceptable and unnnecessary to lose to the Blues.

Pagan should kiss Wayne Carey's feet as he is the reason why he won the premierships.

Not the full story in my opinion. When Carey was out, Roberts or Archer would fill in admirably. And you could expect to get carved up by their on-ballers.

He played well in the 96 & 99 GF but they won both embarassingly easily.

Not the full story in my opinion. When Carey was out, Roberts or Archer would fill in admirably. And you could expect to get carved up by their on-ballers.

He played well in the 96 & 99 GF but they won both embarassingly easily.

Well, if we're going to get into the realm of speculation, what if Pagan became coach in 1992 or 1993 or whatever and the following players didn't get injured badly for long peripods of time:-

The Ox, Garry Lyon, Stinga, Jaka, Sean Charles and Prymke.

And what if Pagan kept Martin Pyke under control and persuaded Todd Viney not to become a tennis coach.

Not the full story in my opinion. When Carey was out, Roberts or Archer would fill in admirably. And you could expect to get carved up by their on-ballers.

He played well in the 96 & 99 GF but they won both embarassingly easily.

While we often laud North's success on Carey (and he was good) you do not win GFs on one man alone. North had a terrific band of unsung heroes that stepped up and were as capable as any.

agree the fridge use and longmire did there fair share as well