it just comes down to one point - if you're going to enter the political arena and you act like a prat then you are going to get crucified. Thats whats happened. Yes there are racists jumping on the bandwagon . No doubt . but i object to all being labelled as such

  On 28/07/2015 at 02:40, Munga said:

If a black player deserves boing next week but is politically incorrect to boo Goodes then what are we to do? Should everyone sit quietly for fear of being labelled a racist? Really?

I am a staunch opponent of political correctness. I am quite possibly the only white person on this forum thats been the subject of racism. Heavy racism to be exact during my time in the Middle East. So don't mistake me for a supporter of racism but to give a W*nker a free pass because of his skin color is garbage

I’ve said this before on another thread sometime but I’ll say it again since you seem to be making a virtue of repetition on this topic: there’s nothing more politically correct than accusing someone else of political correctness. If you want to silence objections to your opinions then do so by producing something like a reasoned or empirically supported argument. Merely tossing accusations of political correctness isn’t and oughtn't be a way of fielding objections to anything you’ve got to say.

As for the Goodes situation, here’s a proposition for you (it’s actually no more than an extension on what others, like Hardtack and Goffy have already pointed out): it is absolutely clear that a portion (and none of us knows exactly how small or large that portion is) of the crowd at match after match has taken to booing Goodes for entirely racist reasons. Some other portion appears to join in for perhaps a whole range of grievances they believe they’re entitled to hold against Goodes for the way he plays or played; and then, no doubt, there’s another element that gets involved because they think they’re being funny or it will put Goodes off and help their own team.

The problem is that these other booers are now giving both cover and comfort to the racists and they really need to start recognising that this is what they’re doing or they too will, perhaps should, find themselves implicated in the racist behaviour since giving succour to racists isn’t all that far from racism itself. I’m pretty sure some people have already reached that conclusion but it worries me that this is all heading in another far too polarised direction. If everyone who’s inclined to boo for whatever other reasons they’ve got just decided to desist for a while it would leave the racists standing on their own and exposed, and no doubt they'd shut up pretty quickly.

The AFL could deal with this even more efficiently, since Gillon’s already jumped on his high horse. They could take a leaf out of UEFA’s book and just close the venue for the next home game for the Eagles or whatever other team’s crowd might get itself involved in booing that the AFL doesn’t think is acceptable. But I won’t hold my breath for them to put principle before profit.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:24, hardtack said:

For the entire game and for every game that season? I will check out the link in an effort to get those questions answered.

Ok, checked it out and just as I suspected, it is nothing like what has happened since 2013. That is ONE game and you point out some booing at 4:44. Since 2013 it has been happening for extended periods in EVERY game and has been getting increasingly worse over time.

While the majority doing it now may not be racially motivated, they sure as hell must be giving encouragement to those who are. I really wonder what the response would be if you were to randomly ask spectators why they were booing Goodes from the opening bounce to the final siren... I doubt most could reasonably justify it.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:31, Ethan Tremblay said:

I'll concede that it got worse after he publicly humiliated a 13 year old girl.

yes the girl was in the wrong , we all agree, but gee the image of a 6'5 fully grown man pointing out a 13 year old girl in front of 50, 000 people is a PR nightmare that Goodes was always going to struggle with.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:28, Munga said:

The stance he took in those two occasions is definitely related to it but if he was a solid citizen on the field the booing wouldn't have happened i believe. If fans liked the guy to begin with it would be 'look at this guy, he makes sense". instead it was more like ' that 'd8ckhead goodes is going on again'. peoples perception of him as a person is muddied by his on field exploits. So i agree the girl incident is likely one cause but its the fact he acts a prat is why some have pushed back against him.

If eddie betts got up tomorrow and started speaking out I'm almost positive he wouldn't get the same attention. goodes is a PR managers nightmare.

It seems we aren't so far apart in our thoughts, I agree he was not hugely liked before hand, and that probably contributed to the ease of booing for people, it still doesn't excuse the booing because he took a stand though.

It all comes down to the motivation of the people booing. Those doing it now are just sheep, those who intensified the booing and made it a constant across all games are the ones in question.

Gee.....I've booed a lot of players....David Rhys Jones....Neil Balme....Michael Long....Byron Pickett.....

White....Black......Yellow.....Arabic....Nordic.....Asian

I am not a racist....I hate all opponents equally.

P.S. The only reason domestic violence numbers have risen is that the police now HAVE to report every domestic they attend. A few years ago this was not the case. Domestic violence has been happening ever since man and women have lived together.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:31, Ethan Tremblay said:

I'll concede that it got worse after he publicly humiliated a 13 year old girl.

Wrong... the booing was barely noticeable and he was NOT booed in the GF that year... it started in earnest following his being awarded the title of Australian of the Year.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:31, Ethan Tremblay said:

I'll concede that it got worse after he publicly humiliated a 13 year old girl.

And therein lies the issue. If they were booing for any other reason then fine, to do it because of this is wrong.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:32, Dr John Dee said:

I’ve said this before on another thread sometime but I’ll say it again since you seem to be making a virtue of repetition on this topic: there’s nothing more politically correct than accusing someone else of political correctness. If you want to silence objections to your opinions then do so by producing something like a reasoned or empirically supported argument. Merely tossing accusations of political correctness isn’t and oughtn't be a way of fielding objections to anything you’ve got to say.

As for the Goodes situation, here’s a proposition for you (it’s actually no more than an extension on what others, like Hardtack and Goffy have already pointed out): it is absolutely clear that a portion (and none of us knows exactly how small or large that portion is) of the crowd at match after match has taken to booing Goodes for entirely racist reasons. Some other portion appears to join in for perhaps a whole range of grievances they believe they’re entitled to hold against Goodes for the way he plays or played; and then, no doubt, there’s another element that gets involved because they think they’re being funny or it will put Goodes off and help their own team.

The problem is that these other booers are now giving both cover and comfort to the racists and they really need to start recognising that this is what they’re doing or they too will, perhaps should, find themselves implicated in the racist behaviour since giving succour to racists isn’t all that far from racism itself. I’m pretty sure some people have already reached that conclusion but it worries me that this is all heading in another far too polarised direction. If everyone who’s inclined to boo for whatever other reasons they’ve got just decided to desist for a while it would leave the racists standing on their own and exposed, and no doubt they'd shut up pretty quickly.

The AFL could deal with this even more efficiently, since Gillon’s already jumped on his high horse. They could take a leaf out of UEFA’s book and just close the venue for the next home game for the Eagles or whatever other team’s crowd might get itself involved in booing that the AFL doesn’t think is acceptable. But I won’t hold my breath for them to put principle before profit.

Unfortunately the media and AFL stepping in has made it worse. It should be left to fans and security to enforce vilification rules if they hear verbal abuse.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:31, Chris said:

What is the possible other cause? If you can find one then great, I certainly can't.

I don't know, that's why I'm not making assumptions about the people who do it as a whole.

Some people claim it is because he takes dives, snipes and complains to umpires. Some people do it because they are racist and do not like him because of his heritage whilst some people do it because he hit Simon Godfrey once.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:32, Munga said:

it just comes down to one point - if you're going to enter the political arena and you act like a prat then you are going to get crucified. Thats whats happened. Yes there are racists jumping on the bandwagon . No doubt . but i object to all being labelled as such

And what exactly did he do in the political arena that made him a prat?

Stand up for his people? Bring up historical fact? Provide organisational support for the Aboriginal community? Yeah, what a prat hey...

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:34, Munga said:

yes the girl was in the wrong , we all agree, but gee the image of a 6'5 fully grown man pointing out a 13 year old girl in front of 50, 000 people is a PR nightmare that Goodes was always going to struggle with.

Wrong. It's a PR nightmare this country is going to struggle with.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:37, Clint Bizkit said:

I don't know, that's why I'm not making assumptions about the people who do it as a whole.

Some people claim it is because he takes dives, snipes and complains to umpires. Some people do it because they are racist and do not like him because of his heritage whilst some people do it because he hit Simon Godfrey once.

Only one of those reasons would explain the timing that happened.

But i still ask, why if there is such a huge undercurrent of racism in our AFL crowds do we not hear a peep of it toward other players? Im not denying there is some racism and there will ALWAYS be racism but to say theres a huge problem out there is just false. Most people are pretty good, like i said earlier, compared to what I've witnessed in my travels we are angels!

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:34, Munga said:

yes the girl was in the wrong , we all agree, but gee the image of a 6'5 fully grown man pointing out a 13 year old girl in front of 50, 000 people is a PR nightmare that Goodes was always going to struggle with.

And therein lies the shame of the whole sorry saga... Goodes should NOT have to struggle with iot at all.

There was no way he could have known the girl's age in the heat of the moment and there is no way that racism should be excused in any shape or form... I feel sorry for the girl of course, but the angst should not be directed at Goodes and it should not be directed at the girl who is probably just as much a victim... it should be directed towards whatever it is that could lead that girl to believe that what she said is acceptable; my 13 year old son is able to to easily recognise what is wrong and right in terms of racial commentary. Even the girls's own family made a sincere and heartfelt apology to Goodes and stated that they felt no malice towards him.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:35, hardtack said:

Wrong... the booing was barely noticeable and he was NOT booed in the GF that year... it started in earnest following his being awarded the title of Australian of the Year.

From memory he was booed for a few games after the incident with the girl, enough that I noticed an increase, but yes it really ramped up with the aus of year title.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:40, stuie said:

And what exactly did he do in the political arena that made him a prat?

Stand up for his people? Bring up historical fact? Provide organisational support for the Aboriginal community? Yeah, what a prat hey...

NO stuie he acts a prat on the field so some people hold it against him when he is in the political arena. Keep up mate

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:42, Munga said:

But i still ask, why if there is such a huge undercurrent of racism in our AFL crowds do we not hear a peep of it toward other players? Im not denying there is some racism and there will ALWAYS be racism but to say theres a huge problem out there is just false. Most people are pretty good, like i said earlier, compared to what I've witnessed in my travels we are angels!

How many other players were named Australian of the Year?

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:43, hardtack said:

And therein lies the shame of the whole sorry saga... Goodes should NOT have to struggle with iot at all.

There was no way he could have known the girl's age in the heat of the moment and there is no way that racism should be excused in any shape or form... I feel sorry for the girl of course, but the angst should not be directed at Goodes and it should not be directed at the girl who is probably just as much a victim... it should be directed towards whatever it is that could lead that girl to believe that what she said is acceptable; my 13 year old son is able to to easily recognise what is wrong and right in terms of racial commentary. Even the girls's own family made a sincere and heartfelt apology to Goodes and stated that they felt no malice towards him.

I agree hardtack. no winners in that at all. of course he dint know who'd said what and i still reckon if he had his time again he would wish it went down differently . and of course he shouldn't have to hear it anyway but he did and it did and it will be held against him

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:42, Chris said:

Only one of those reasons would explain the timing that happened.

You could be right, but we don't know.

Therefore, I'm not going to label everyone who does boo him as racist just because that could be the reason he is booed.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:42, Munga said:

But i still ask, why if there is such a huge undercurrent of racism in our AFL crowds do we not hear a peep of it toward other players? Im not denying there is some racism and there will ALWAYS be racism but to say theres a huge problem out there is just false. Most people are pretty good, like i said earlier, compared to what I've witnessed in my travels we are angels!

I agree that compared to some countries we are great, but there is still work to do.

I think the angst comes from Goodes calling out the issues. Most other Indigenous players don't do so, and certainly not as prominently as Goodes does. For some this means they are happy, kind of like if the issue is hidden then it isn't an issue (domestic violence anyone?). When Goodes brings it to the fore it does make a certain segment of the community uncomfortable, I have met these people, I know some of these people, they don't like to face up to what has happened, and what is still happening. The more brash of this lot are the ones who start to boo because they don't like what he says, then they make other convenient excuses and others jump on board thinking that that is what it is really about. The extreme of this group are also the ones at the reclaim Australia rallies. They are scared of change and of what they don't know.

This would make up a small part of the booing group, but it was this lot who ramped up the booing and in turn got the others on board.

Michael Long was just as confronting in his stance and could be judged as even more courageous due to the perceptions in that era. He was heralded by most for his views and they were more confronting as it was directed at us the footy fans and players.

The crowds embraced him. Well except the 2000 granny

The difference is that Goodes just doesn't come across all that well. The footy public loved Michael Long.

Goodes they never did. Great player though and hopefully he will be remembered for that. His step in to the political side has backfired on him a bit, not due to skin colour but to him as a person for whatever reason.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:32, Dr John Dee said:

I’ve said this before on another thread sometime but I’ll say it again since you seem to be making a virtue of repetition on this topic: there’s nothing more politically correct than accusing someone else of political correctness. If you want to silence objections to your opinions then do so by producing something like a reasoned or empirically supported argument. Merely tossing accusations of political correctness isn’t and oughtn't be a way of fielding objections to anything you’ve got to say.

As for the Goodes situation, here’s a proposition for you (it’s actually no more than an extension on what others, like Hardtack and Goffy have already pointed out): it is absolutely clear that a portion (and none of us knows exactly how small or large that portion is) of the crowd at match after match has taken to booing Goodes for entirely racist reasons. Some other portion appears to join in for perhaps a whole range of grievances they believe they’re entitled to hold against Goodes for the way he plays or played; and then, no doubt, there’s another element that gets involved because they think they’re being funny or it will put Goodes off and help their own team.

The problem is that these other booers are now giving both cover and comfort to the racists and they really need to start recognising that this is what they’re doing or they too will, perhaps should, find themselves implicated in the racist behaviour since giving succour to racists isn’t all that far from racism itself. I’m pretty sure some people have already reached that conclusion but it worries me that this is all heading in another far too polarised direction. If everyone who’s inclined to boo for whatever other reasons they’ve got just decided to desist for a while it would leave the racists standing on their own and exposed, and no doubt they'd shut up pretty quickly.

The AFL could deal with this even more efficiently, since Gillon’s already jumped on his high horse. They could take a leaf out of UEFA’s book and just close the venue for the next home game for the Eagles or whatever other team’s crowd might get itself involved in booing that the AFL doesn’t think is acceptable. But I won’t hold my breath for them to put principle before profit.

lot of common sense there doc

in one way you agree with munga

his "main" beef was that he objected to the premise (held by some here) that anyone who boo'ed goodes was being racist (no matter what)

this is plainly taking an extremist view and is quite presumptuous of other peoples' thought processes

it seems to me that many people don't like the way goodes goes about things on or off the field, and whether or not one disagrees with their reasoning it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be racially based

if we could all agree that some (undefined) people who boo goodes are acting in a racist manner, but not all of them, then we could just move on past this point

belabouring this one point is becoming tiresome and circuitous

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:46, Clint Bizkit said:

You could be right, but we don't know.

Therefore, I'm not going to label everyone who does boo him as racist just because that could be the reason he is booed.

That is why it started though, many people have joined in for other reasons not realising what the are endorsing, but it doesn't change what they are endorsing.

  On 28/07/2015 at 03:43, Munga said:

NO stuie he acts a prat on the field so some people hold it against him when he is in the political arena. Keep up mate

Absolute rubbish. He's regarded as a champion of the game and won Australian Of The Year. Keep up redneck.