BH what do you know about the "player vote"

Nothing. Like others I'm purely speculating. It's an educated guess, as opposed to contributions such as Biffen (sic), that are uneducated.

Watch the Neeld/Dawes press conference again. Listen to Neeld regularly talk about the types of players he wanted at the club - premiership players amongst them. And of course Neeld knows Dawes better than the Melbourne players. Listen to Dawes speak, he's articlate and a thinker, who was know doubt sold on the role he'd have at Melbourne, as well as the opportunity to become a leader within a young group.

Dawes may not make the LG this year, it may be a year too early, but I'll be very surprised if he doesn't for the reasons I've mentioned.

Edited December 19, 201212 yr by Ben-Hur

leadership is an often illdefined attribute in many academic and theoretical contexts.

It is a characteristic that is always needed, sought and admired.

I was taught by an admired mentor a salutory lesson in leadership when preparing emergency procedures. We also selected, appointed and trained appropriate emergency officers.(leaders)

My mentor supported the activity but reminded me when an emergency happened and some of our leaders were away that leaders emerge.

Indeed over time in the organisation we saw leaders emerge from their reaction to a situation and the acknowledgement and acceptance by others of their leadership.

As I said it is not an easy matter but the difficulties in appointing are obvious. Politics, religion , social, formal, informal, structured, unstructured . There are probably more failed leaders than successful and I do believe that there are more figureheads or leaders who operate with others around them performing leadership roles. It is getting that balance right that is the greatest test of an organisation. My mentor also confirmed one of the defined points of leaders that they contain most of the character attributes of those they are leading and that is what sets them apart. being able to recognise, inspire and utilise the skills of those about you is probably the greatest proof of leadership.

Let the leaders emerge

I don't think a player who trains hard over the preseason, such as the previously mentioned T Mc and Nicho, should be rewarded with a spot in the LG. Working your arse off and training hard should be the minimum of all listed players.

The LG is much more than just who plays well and who trains hard. Judd does both, but he's not a leader's backside. He is one of minimal examples where we, as "outsiders", can sit back and say that a person is lacking leadership qualities. I for one have no idea who is a good leader at the MFC, as a lot of the things a good leader should do would happen behind closed doors.

That said, and looking at last year's group, I can't see any changes, other than Bartram out (obviously), and I think he will be replaced by Byrnes.

I agree with you that LG is more than just training hard and playing well but I disagree with you on Judd. Whilst he has had a couple of well publicised lapses ( Fevola at the brownlow and the the kid who was tied up on the boat to mention two) he has great leadership qualities in my opinion. The number of times Carlton has needed someone to get them back in a game or take it by the scruff of the neck and Judd has done one or two things that sets the team going is countless. He leads by example.

I liken Nathan Jones to him in that over the last 2 seasons when we are getting creamed it seems to inspire Jones to work even harder. He not only runs himself into the ground when the game is still on, he does it when we are 100 points down.

Edited December 19, 201212 yr by nutbean

I agree with you that LG is more than just training hard and playing well but I disagree with you on Judd. Whilst he has had a couple of well publicised lapses ( Fevola at the brownlow and the the kid who was tied up on the boat to mention two) he has great leadership qualities in my opinion. The number of times Carlton has needed someone to get them back in a game or take it by the scruff of the neck and Judd has done one or two things that sets the team going is countless. He leads by example.

I liken Nathan Jones to him in that over the last 2 seasons when we are getting creamed it seems to inspire Jones to work even harder. He not only runs himself into the ground when the game is still on, he does it when we are 100 points down.

Nutbean - you, like me, only see what Judd does onfield. He is a star, and because of those playing wualities you mentioned, that's what makes him one of the best players.

I have a number of Carlton-supporting friends, and they all agree, Judd is not a leader.

Nutbean - you, like me, only see what Judd does onfield. He is a star, and because of those playing wualities you mentioned, that's what makes him one of the best players.

I have a number of Carlton-supporting friends, and they all agree, Judd is not a leader.

maybe..

I am in the camp that we actually see very little of the leadership qualities except probably how hard they train or how well they play or how they lead by example - we cant hear the talk, we cant hear the encouragement, we cant hear the player telling a younger player what to do and what not to do. We dont hear what is said by who in the huddle or for that matter in the dressing rooms or training track.

We have glimpses but thats about it - its interesting that I have talked to a couple of Collingwood players who say that Nick Maxwell is an exceptional leader - I dont see it but thats exactly my point - we dont usually get to see the whole picture when it comes to leadership ( hence the reason that Bartram was in the LG last year - I dont see it but the players and coaching staff did)

Edited December 19, 201212 yr by nutbean

Judd isn't a leader.

The exclamation point on the statement is the fact that he doesn't want to lead the club and doesn't even want to be in the LG.

Just thought I'd throw up another smokey to be in the leadership group, Dunn. He's experience and one that looked like he was gone for all money mid year and then produced some good form down back. He's also one of the more out there blokes that seems to involve people at training. Might be a direct replacement for Barts. The other smokey is Jordie, clearly well regarded by the coaching staff and doesn't leave anything out on the park.