holes in our list?

[Doggo 32]

Most ruckman are. Id say most of the ruckman in the comp have not played every game. Although your right they have both had long term injury's or a lot of weeks out. I was Including Martin not PJ. PJ is close to out for me. Martin use to play ruck at Sandy I'm pretty sure. I suppose we will find out what they do come draft time. I think you cant be scared off by injury's but it is a fact. Time will tell.

Agree, i believe ruck is the most difficult position to play re: injuries. That's why a 2nd ruckman is so vital to ruckman's ultimate career-longevity. Doesn't change the fact, or make it more acceptable, that Jamar has been so injury-prone in his time at the club though. (FWIW, he did play one full year, in 2006). He's played some good footy this year, but what use is he if he can't get on the park?

I don't think Martin is a natural ruck, he looks awkward in the centre bounces and gets jumped into a lot, and hence has picked up a few niggling ruck injuries in recent weeks. He did some rucking at Sandy before being drafted, but hasn't done a whole lot since being at the club until now.

Jim Stynes played 244 consecutive games in the ruck, often rucking alone! An absolute marvel that man...

[Ryan Dee 140]

Agree, i believe ruck is the most difficult position to play re: injuries. That's why a 2nd ruckman is so vital to ruckman's ultimate career-longevity. Doesn't change the fact, or make it more acceptable, that Jamar has been so injury-prone in his time at the club though. (FWIW, he did play one full year, in 2006). He's played some good footy this year, but what use is he if he can't get on the park?

I don't think Martin is a natural ruck, he looks awkward in the centre bounces and gets jumped into a lot, and hence has picked up a few niggling ruck injuries in recent weeks. He did some rucking at Sandy before being drafted, but hasn't done a whole lot since being at the club until now.

Jim Stynes played 244 consecutive games in the ruck, often rucking alone! An absolute marvel that man...

Where's Jolly when we need him. We got pick 15 for him which was Dunn. hmmmm still might be worth it.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Mr Morton

[Jaded No More 68,867]

Where's Jolly when we need him. We got pick 15 for him which was Dunn. hmmmm still might be worth it.

That we got pick 15 for him and that we used that pick on Dunn are two separate issues. We did well out of that trade.

We also scored out of the Woey trade (Bell's form aside) and pulled off a massive victory in the TJ trade.

I know this will upset a few people on here, but I'd seriously look at trading Bruce to a club that wants to top up their list. If we got pick 14 for TJ, I'm sure we can get something decent for Bruce, who is still at peak fitness.

He is the only senior player on our list who has some currency and who we can afford to lose (we're not going to trade Green or Davey). Now is the time to act, because this off-season could really make or break our future success. We have to draft extremely well, manage our list carefully in preparation for the GC attack, and see what we can do during trade week.

[Ryan Dee 140]

That we got pick 15 for him and that we used that pick on Dunn are two separate issues.

Can you explain that ?

[Doggo 32]

The fact we got pick 15 for Jolly, like pick 14 for Woey, means we did really well to get 1st round picks for those players at that particular point in their careers. Unfortunately, the players we got with those picks didn't turn out how we'd expected/hoped.

I think Jaded is trying to say despite us (eventually) picking up two fringe players with those picks, we still did really well out of the deals in getting 1st round picks, and essentially won in those particular trades. The quality of the two guys we got is another issue altogether, ie. recruiting.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Doggo

[Ryan Dee 140]

The fact we got pick 15 for Jolly, like pick 14 for Woey, means we did really well to get 1st round picks for those players at that particular point in their careers. Unfortunately, the players we got with those picks didn't turn out how we'd expected/hoped.

I think Jaded is trying to say despite us (eventually) picking up two fringe players with those picks, we still did really well out of the deals in getting 1st round picks, and essentially won in those particular trades. The quality of the two guys we got is another issue altogether, ie. recruiting.

ah ok I see. Yes thats true. The TJ one was the best obviously.

[rpfc 28,261]

Good point about PJ; only his most ardent supporters (just Dappa Dan and myself now) are standing by him, whereas last year popular opinion was that he would turn out alright. Not everyone agreed, but the rate at which 'supporters' of his have jumped off the bandwagon is very alarming. He rarely made a mistake last year, but it only shows how fickle good form and confidence can be at times. I've rated the guy since juniors, but even i am starting to lose patience.

His rucking has improved but the one weakness he has always had is that he is a 200cm winger.

He doesn't impose himself in contests and is constantly pushed off the ball by players he has 15-20kgs on.

He, if he is OOC, should look to move on at the end of the year. He has been dropped in favour of a 19 year old bean pole and a bloke who is still a better basketballer than footballer. With Jamar as first ruck ahead of him aswell.

[titan_uranus 24,970]

That we got pick 15 for him and that we used that pick on Dunn are two separate issues. We did well out of that trade.

We also scored out of the Woey trade (Bell's form aside) and pulled off a massive victory in the TJ trade.

How can you say that getting pick 15 and using that pick on Dunn are two separate issues, when you then go on to say that the TJ trade was a success?

As far as I can see, they're idential situations:

We give Jolly to Sydney - they give us pick 15 - we use pick 15 on Dunn

We give TJ to Brisbane - they give us pick 14 - we use pick 14 on Grimes

[45HG 1,539]

Because it was a success Titan.

Trading Jolly for pick 15 was probably a success at the time, though could also be conceived as being fair enough.

The use of that pick then becomes another issue as it is not part of the trade.

And, of course, if that trade is considered a sucess, the Brisbane deal would be too.

Trading an older, less capable in terms of attitude, player for a first round pick is a success.

The fact we got Grimes is a separate issue, but should also be considered a roaring success.

[rpfc 28,261]

Because it was a success Titan.

Trading Jolly for pick 15 was probably a success at the time, though could also be conceived as being fair enough.

The use of that pick then becomes another issue as it is not part of the trade.

And, of course, if that trade is considered a sucess, the Brisbane deal would be too.

Trading an older, less capable in terms of attitude, player for a first round pick is a success.

The fact we got Grimes is a separate issue, but should also be considered a roaring success.

Not a big fan of this attitude. I applauded the TJ trade, and the Jolly trade, and was pulled apart but understood the Woey trade, but the reaping of the sowing includes what player you received from the pick you received.

Chamberlain getting reassurances from Hitler was seen as a success at the time, but we all know how that went...

(What an extreme example, sorry about that. I was watching the History Channel yesterday.)

[titan_uranus 24,970]

I can undestand the idea that we did well out of both trades because we got a first round pick for both, which is at least equal to what the player was worth. But if that pick ends up in a player like Dunn, then it's hard to be happy when you look back on that trade.

[45HG 1,539]

Trading and recruiting are two separate issues.

I suppose it depends who is taking control (if it's purely the person in charge of recruiting who conducts the trade/recruiting, which I would find unlikely, or if it is the entire FD). I do see your point though - however I feel that the idea of trading a player for a high draft pick (in order to get some more youth into the team, with a better chance of obtaining a quality one) is one issue, the recruitment of a quality player is another one.

TBH, the progress of Dunn, Bell and to a lesser extent, Bate are more an indictment on our development processes than anything else.

Edited August 8, 2009 by 45hotgod16

[rpfc 28,261]

Trading and recruiting are two separate issues.

Yes, but they are both the business of the Footy Dept.

They were giving up a player to get another.

[45HG 1,539]

I can undestand the idea that we did well out of both trades because we got a first round pick for both, which is at least equal to what the player was worth. But if that pick ends up in a player like Dunn, then it's hard to be happy when you look back on that trade.

I disagree.

I think it'd be hard to look back and be happy about the recruitment, the trade would still be a success.

Brisbane would have been happy to trade Wood for pick 14. They would not be happy about trading pick 14 for TJ

[Viney+Brayshaw+Hogan=Flag 32]

we need scully, trengove and the best available strong bodied forward with our second round pick! our back line will be awsome, adding scully and trengove will give us an elite midfield, we just need a strong bodied power forward to complete our forward line!

athletic CHF = Watts

crumber = Wonna

defensive pressure = Jetta (been very good at it this year)

magic = Jurruh

third tall = Bate (love this guy! there is a lot of negative talk about him on this site, don't know why, he's a gun!)

power forward = ?

i think we need to look at Ben Griffiths

the rest of our picks should just be best available player. i think jamar, meesen and spencer will be good enough as ruckmen, i really like martin as the back up ruckman cause if need be he can go forward or back. the other ruckmen can really do this. so really only need to play one ruckman plus martin.

i would like to get dylan grimes aswell with a late pick. i know he probably won't be as good as his brother, but i heard he is a natural leader. and even if he's half as good as his brother, he will still be a gun!

[45HG 1,539]

Yes, but they are both the business of the Footy Dept.

They were giving up a player to get another.

Yes, but they (in this case) gave up that player for a pick - a good one, something to be happy about.

The fact they later recruited a player who has not turned out to be the impact player we'd hope for is not something to be happy about - a recruitment/development issue.

[Rogue 585]

I'd also like another KPF prospect and would take a KPF if presented with an equally-ranked mid and KPF at pick #2.

We certainly do need pace, particularly in a small defender.

Just pick up a ruckman in the draft where the best ruckman come from. The rookie draft. I think Spencer will be a good player for us once he fixes up his kicking. Jamar is nothing special but does the job when he is fit which is not too often. We haven't exactly done well with trading for ruckman. Meeson has done very little and PJ has been one of the biggest disappointments of the year.

Indeed - I wouldn't be looking to spend picks on a ruck for the sake of it.

I know this will upset a few people on here, but I'd seriously look at trading Bruce to a club that wants to top up their list. If we got pick 14 for TJ, I'm sure we can get something decent for Bruce, who is still at peak fitness.

He is the only senior player on our list who has some currency and who we can afford to lose (we're not going to trade Green or Davey). Now is the time to act, because this off-season could really make or break our future success. We have to draft extremely well, manage our list carefully in preparation for the GC attack, and see what we can do during trade week.

I can't imagine Bruce getting anything near what TJ got, so I doubt it'd be worth it.

Yes, but they are both the business of the Footy Dept.

They were giving up a player to get another.

I agree with hotgood - in this circumstance you really give up a player to get x pick in the draft.

IMO whether it's a good or bad trade should be based on what value you place on the player traded and x number pick in the draft, rather than how the draftee turns out down the track.

Thus I'd argue that whether you get a Dunn or a Grimes with x draft pick doesn't determine whether the decision to trade away a player for x draft pick was right or wrong.

[rpfc 28,261]

Rogue and 45HG16 - I completely understand what you are saying but the premise of that pick as a value item wholly rests in the ability to get a player of equal ability or greater ability.

I just believe you can't dissociate the value of the pick received and the player received.

The draft may have been the vehicle, but in my eyes we got Jack Grimes for Travis Johnstone, and I'm OK with that logic.

[titan_uranus 24,970]

Rogue and 45HG16 - I completely understand what you are saying but the premise of that pick as a value item wholly rests in the ability to get a player of equal ability or greater ability.

I just believe you can't dissociate the value of the pick received and the player received.

The draft may have been the vehicle, but in my eyes we got Jack Grimes for Travis Johnstone, and I'm OK with that logic.

I guess I've been on rpfc's side of the argument, but what Rogue and 45hg are saying makes sense too. Sometimes drafting is a bit of a gamble, and we mucked up picking Dunn. Getting pick 15 for Jolly, as a stand-alone fact, is a success. But we failed when we used pick 15 to select Dunn.

[45HG 1,539]

I guess I've been on rpfc's side of the argument, but what Rogue and 45hg are saying makes sense too. Sometimes drafting is a bit of a gamble, and we mucked up picking Dunn. Getting pick 15 for Jolly, as a stand-alone fact, is a success. But we failed when we used pick 15 to select Dunn.

Which is exactly what I've been saying... B)

I think we're all on the same page, anyway. I still think Chris Johnson to Carlton for nothing was one of the better ones we've been involved in...Farmer for Phil Gilbert wasn't bad.

[sylvinator 96]

BUMP!

The season is now over for us, the draft is coming up and this is the most important topic we can discuss. To win a premiership you need a complete team. What do we need to add to our current list?!

My analysis:

Small defenders: Cheney, Bell

Running defenders: Strauss, Buckley, Bennel, Bail

Key defenders: Warnock, Frawley, Rivers, Garland, McNamara, Martin*** (Martin to be the versatile gap-filler, back/forward/ruck)

Midfielders: Mclean, Moloney, Morton, Davey, Bruce, Green, Jones, Grimes, Blease, McDonald, Bartram, McKenzie ®

small forwards: Wanaeamirri

half forwards: Sylvia, Pettard, Jetta, Maric

Key forwards: Watts, Jurrah, Bate, Miller, Newton

Ruckman: Jamar, PJ, Meesan, Spenser ®

_______

imo, we have been massacred in the midfield all year. We get the fewest inside50 entries in the afl! That is the midfield's fault. Ussually the team with the most inside 50s tends to win. We need quality in the midfield.

Needs in order or urgency:

*2= star quality midfielders (getting our midfield right will go along way to our climb up the ladder)

*1= key forward (Miller and Newton are shite... Watts, Jurrah and Bate could use another key forward)

*1= small forward (I'm thinking in the mould of Betts/Milne)

*1= small defender (Bell is crap, Cheney i don't rate that much... we need a stop player to take the opposition quick forward)

*1= Ruckman (Jamar is good. The others probably won't amount to much)

*1= tagger (I'm thinking in the mould of Picken)

Therefore I would:

Pick1= Scully (midfielder)

Pick2= Trengove (midfielder)

Pick18= Lewis Jetta (small forward)/ Panos (key forward)

pick 34= If went small forward with pick 18, then KF with this pick. Visa Versa

PSD 1= Best available uncontracted player

Rookie picks:

- Look for a tagger and a small stopping defender. These guyz can be found in the Rookie draft because they do not need to be super talented. they just need to be very good at their role in the team.

- Pick a ruckman... good ruckman can be found in the rookie draft

[Adam The God 30,123]

Needs in order or urgency:

*2= star quality midfielders (getting our midfield right will go along way to our climb up the ladder)

*1= key forward (Miller and Newton are shite... Watts, Jurrah and Bate could use another key forward)

*1= small forward (I'm thinking in the mould of Betts/Milne)

*1= small defender (Bell is crap, Cheney i don't rate that much... we need a stop player to take the opposition quick forward)

*1= Ruckman (Jamar is good. The others probably won't amount to much)

*1= tagger (I'm thinking in the mould of Picken)

I agree with the two midfielders with the first two picks, but we don't need a Betts or Milne, Aussie fits the bill perfectly. He is also a better build than both of the former.

I wasn't the biggest fan of Cheney either, but having watched him play a very solid game yesterday, I've changed my mind on him. Bell is not a small defender, he's a back flanker and as you point out, not good enough. We have enough to cover him. Bennell can play there. Jamar and Spencer are both looking good in the ruck, whilst Jones and Morton showed signs of being able to tag.

The thing that Bailey seems to be developing is flexibility and therefore a specialist tagger may not be required, if someone like a Morton could step in to tag a Goodes and Jones or Dunn could follow a smaller midfield type.

Tappscot, Panos or Carlisle could fill that other key forward roll too.

[Ryan Dee 140]

BUMP!

The season is now over for us, the draft is coming up and this is the most important topic we can discuss. To win a premiership you need a complete team. What do we need to add to our current list?!

My analysis:

Small defenders: Cheney, Bell

Running defenders: Strauss, Buckley, Bennel, Bail

Key defenders: Warnock, Frawley, Rivers, Garland, McNamara, Martin*** (Martin to be the versatile gap-filler, back/forward/ruck)

Midfielders: Mclean, Moloney, Morton, Davey, Bruce, Green, Jones, Grimes, Blease, McDonald, Bartram, McKenzie ®

small forwards: Wanaeamirri

half forwards: Sylvia, Pettard, Jetta, Maric

Key forwards: Watts, Jurrah, Bate, Miller, Newton

Ruckman: Jamar, PJ, Meesan, Spenser ®

_______

imo, we have been massacred in the midfield all year. We get the fewest inside50 entries in the afl! That is the midfield's fault. Ussually the team with the most inside 50s tends to win. We need quality in the midfield.

Needs in order or urgency:

*2= star quality midfielders (getting our midfield right will go along way to our climb up the ladder)

*1= key forward (Miller and Newton are shite... Watts, Jurrah and Bate could use another key forward)

*1= small forward (I'm thinking in the mould of Betts/Milne)

*1= small defender (Bell is crap, Cheney i don't rate that much... we need a stop player to take the opposition quick forward)

*1= Ruckman (Jamar is good. The others probably won't amount to much)

*1= tagger (I'm thinking in the mould of Picken)

Therefore I would:

Pick1= Scully (midfielder)

Pick2= Trengove (midfielder)

Pick18= Lewis Jetta (small forward)/ Panos (key forward)

pick 34= If went small forward with pick 18, then KF with this pick. Visa Versa

PSD 1= Best available uncontracted player

Rookie picks:

- Look for a tagger and a small stopping defender. These guyz can be found in the Rookie draft because they do not need to be super talented. they just need to be very good at their role in the team.

- Pick a ruckman... good ruckman can be found in the rookie draft

Dunn can tag or do a run with role.

Barts has apparently gone and if he is not then he can do the run with jobs with Dunn.

Green will not play in the midfield as such but more on the wing/HFF/HBF

As for Jetta I agree, and would love to get him at pick 18 but i'm not sure he will be around come 18th pick ?

We have some versatility in the team so certain positions such as small defenders and small forwards can be covered.