Sorry Hang not trying to get stuck into you but I just don't agree. Old Fatso Dew at Hwathorn is not one of there hard blokes he is a skilled, penetrating kick and rarely puts pressure on opposition when they don't have the ball, when they do have the ball he then puts them under pressure with his kicking.

The Hawks have the likes of Lewis, Brown and Hodge who are the hard nuts. We have Jones, Moloney, McLean, Miller who are big strong bodies but they are not up to applying the pressure needed at AFL level now days. To slow, not the correct smarts, can't hurt teams on the turn over with foot skills or scoreboard pressure etc etc.

Dont under estimate the value of "old fatso Dew" (I love it!) ... hes not just in the side for his kicking. Too many people judge a player by how many kicks he gets and what he does with those kicks. This is not to say thats not important but its not the complete story.

"The Hawks have the likes of Lewis, Brown and Hodge who are the hard nuts." - 100% agree.

One of the things I get so p*ed off about in todays footy is the total lack of sheperds/blocking off the ball.

Another "piece in the puzzle" .. something we dont do enough of consistently. As I said earlier I was very impressed with Magpies commitment to work for one another.

This is a good thread. Well done to all involved.

My two cents? I reckon it'll be amazing to see the change in players like Jones and McLean when they rediscover their hallmarks as footballers in their early days.

Thsi mental disintegration of opponents... something the pies are good at having had so much help from their crowds, is something that can evolve and grow in tandem with confidence. Brock has intimidated players in the past with his hardness and his punishment on the scoreboard. When he does a lot of things well in a short period (which he has the happy knack of doing) a player knows he should tighten up, or at least that he jight be copping a spray from his coach.

Jones in particular will benefit from physical maturity, confidence, and most importantly consistency.

I don't think ANYONE on the list over the age of 25 knows a thing about physical domination, except maybe Wrecker, Rivers (not 25), possibly Miller, and in a clinch Green. But that's not to say some of these kids can't bring that into their games in 3 or so years.

I would say that what we're looking for... that mental edge, in only in its embryonic stages. We won't see anything of this kind for at least 3 years. It's enough for them to figure out what do do when they have the pill, let alone what frame of mind they're in.

Yip nice post - "did they intimidate with there attack on the player?" - Ok this is just my perception. But I think Didak and Lockyer, like them or hate them are very smart footballers. What makes them "smart" IMHO they both have a habit of engaging their opponents ... its that sneaky little push or "physical' block they exert on the opposition sometimes well before the "real" contest begins. IMHO this is what we need to learn, improve and develop. Look its very subtle but very smart, and something I strongly believe can be taught and developed. Hence, my now what appears to be rather crude attempt at calling for an "enforcer tough guy"

Ah, I know what you mean here - it's not so much "Enforcer Tough Guy", it's 'footy smarts'. The longer players play with each other, and develop, this will come.

You will notice Swan, Lockyer, Davis etc create blocks at stoppages to create paths for their teammates etc. Guys like Whelan are good at this - on occassions. The youngsters need to take note and apply what they learn as they mature. Guys like Bell just seem to ball watch and lay a mis-timed tackle........frustrating.

McDonald has what you want in spades IMO

Bartram, could have easily put the brakes on one of the small mid/forwards.

There is of course one recurring theme with the three players listed above; none of them can kick. They are a liability with the ball. I have no doubt we would have been much closer to the mark had all three played yesterday, but can we afford to carry players with poor disposal?

Bartram plays a defensive role, always has. I wouldn't be suprised if the reason he misses some of his targets is he has forgotten how to play offensively. Hopefully his run at Casey has helped with this.

CB kept Didak relatively quiet last time we met, and I have no doubt would have done the same yesterday. It certainly wouldn't have stopped them winning the game, but when one of your play makers is given a tag, it means they have to look for other avenues, which can lead to pressure and therefore turnovers.

I don't know who we had on Didak, but clearly they didn't have the effect we needed.

I don't know if we need an inforcer as such.

Our biggest issue was that we were 2nd to the ball all day, forwards, backs and mids. Leg speed and a bit of smarts was what was lacking. Can't wait for the next crop of mids to start coming through. Unfortunately Mclean, maloney, Jnr, Jones etc just don't have the pace to match it with top sides.

then there are skills but I will leave that one alone. Our drive and ability to cover the ball carrier was pathetic and no wonder we were smashed!

Most dissapointed i have been after a game in a long time (that includes those 100pt thrashings last year!)

McDonald has what you want in spades IMO

Yeah ... sadly Junior cant do it forever ... What about that 100% legal hit - but no some around here want to "attack the ball"

Some might call it "ground breaking" ... but again they miss the point. The whole and complete point.

Call it "enforcer-tough guy" call it "footy-smart" call it "physical intimidation" call it what you want. But we have a few people around here who need to go to a few games and watch what teams do off and around the ball. They need to stop watching the TV and listening to some of those "dumb-ass commentators" and focus on the big picture.

They might, might just learn a thing about our ever evolving game. Watch Geelongs "Enforcer", St Kildas "Enforcer" & Hawks "Enforcer" in action. Watch when the "enforcers type player/s" have a bad day or are out the side all together. ;)

Edit - I forgot to say it again an "enforcer" does not mean you have to belt the living suitcases out of his opponent. However, he must exert a "physical" presence on his opponent. There is a may very fine line between disciplined and undisciplined enforcement. However, "undisciplined enforcement" is useless to the side, disciplined enforcement is poorly understood and something we need to develop in our side. It wont happen over night, but I hoping it does happen.

You cant just judge a player on the basics you must be patience and judge the whole complete package.

We must learn from our opposition on a weekly basis and "hopefully" over time, improved skill level, maturity, confidence and what ever else you want to say may make the difference. However, I suggest we need to insert a "physical" element into our thinking ... not just "go get the ball son."

I dont expect everybody to agree with me, prefer if you dont actually, but time will tell.

Miller, lifts the other forwards around him because he is a picture of aggression and commitment, Jack Watts would have walked a lot taller had Miller been by his side.

What a joke this club is when a dud like Miller would have actually improved the team.

What a joke this club is when a dud like Miller would have actually improved the team.

What some people call "trash" another would call "treasure" ...

The ability to develop the "trash" and turn it into "treasure" is a skill many fail to recognise. Look at your computer and think about it.

What a joke this club is when a dud like Miller would have actually improved the team.

What some people call "trash" another would call "treasure" ...

The ability to develop the "trash" and turn it into "treasure" is a skill many fail to recognise. Look at your computer and think about it.

Good call. Unfortunately I don't think it would register.

Miller too, especially when he's playing with confidence.

(someone built like Dew would go a long way)

I unsure if your being sarcastic ? lol

I was when I said newton and morton

"Enforcing" Mental intimidation will have to be learnt from the ground up Before September football is winnable.

Sylvia's mark against Maxwell was yesterdays only example, & i hope DB Highlighted it today with the Team.

Enforcer ?

this isnt the 60,s

The most effective enforcer i know is what the scoreboard says

this isnt the 60,s

Nope, no doubt about it. But thats exactly my point "this isnt the 60" ... you obviously missed what I said ... so I will say it another way.

I'm not calling for "thuggery" - or as I put it "belt the living suitcases out of our opponents." - yip thats very 60's

The most effective enforcer i know is what the scoreboard says

We struggle to get our some of our supporters to go and watch the game. Think its highly un-lightly the will go and watch a scoreboard for a 100 minutes.

However, being serious the score board pressure debate - again TV commentator BS.

Look if thats your suggestion, hope Dean reads this and when we are losing he can go out and suggest to the boys , "Hey boys look at the scoreboard, there all our development lessons are over for the day. I'm not here to offer any suggestions on how to fix it - just fix it"

Dont get sucked into treating the symptoms - you must treat the cause. You fix the cause of why the score board currently reads the way it does the symptoms will quickly clear-up.