This can be great at stoppages and in contested 'traffic' situations, but once we have the footy, we're basically playing with 21 men possesion wise as he rarely makes himself an offensive option.

Doggo, good post, but I wouldn't gloss over the "once we have the ball" part like you just have without thinking about how it was we got the ball in the first place. In many cases in the last two weeks, if you took away Jamar, you also would've taken away the part about us actually having the ball to begin with. I know I'm getting a little ahead of myself on the back of two good games, but if he is able to continually assert himself at the contest as he has recently, he becomes an absolutely vital ingredient in the middle for winning the ball.

You raise a good point about him contributing to the clutter of the forward line. If your delivery in to the forward line is as slow as ours has been all season prior to the second half of the Freo game, your forward line is going to end up cluttered no matter who goes down there. It'll almost always end up with someone outside 50 bombing it long to the square, and in that instance I'd prefer Jamar was down there as it increases our chances of someone actually grabbing it. If our movement of the ball is quick and precise like the second half of the Freo game, the ball will down the throat of a forward faster than Mark Jamar, Will Minson, David Hille or any ruckman without an S on his chest can get down there anyway.

So what do we make of the recruiting of Meesen? I was one of about 12 Demon supporters at the pre-season game v Geelong, largely to see chaps like Meesen play.

As soon as I saw him I was amazed--he appears to be no taller than White/ Jamar, despite the claimed 201cm.

He didn't contest one centre bounce that day. He actually moved nicely, looked an athlete, but by no means a big ruckman of the future. Perhaps a CHF?

Anyone else watched him closely?

I travelled to Geelong with another Dees fan, but didn't watch him closely.

I've read that the Club is working on fixing ruck technique issues he has.

Regardess, he's still young.

PS. Why do you use center alignment on your posts?

What's disappointing is that blind freddy could see that the centre circle rule was going to affect him more than anyone else. We should have made the hard call back then and traded White when he had value. Collingwood at the time, for eg, would have paid a fortune. Instead, we didn't make the hard call and we pay the price.

It would have indeed been a hard call to trade our No 1 ruckman who was AA that year while at the same time we had our green and rough No 2 ruckman wanting to leave to be No 1 ruckman elsewhere. In addition our No 1 midfielder Scott Thompson also sort a transfer home.

Given rough and poorly performed Jolly went for pick 15 and the year before Peter Everitt went for #6 and #22, as the then current AA ruckman White would easily commanded a top 3 pick. What does Freddy think Collingwood would have traded with when their first pick was pick 10 in the 2004 and they believed they had a ruckman in Fraser (#1 pick in 1999)?

Its easy to make the broad brush statement then but who was honestly in the market to recruit White at his market value. On the other hand short of trading for a replacement ruckman, what were MFC going to do to cover White's loss with Jolly and Jamar?

Charman possy wise I agree, but not sure Minson would take as many marks as you reckon.

Even then the game against the Saints (I think) he (Minson) had about 8 touches but every pack marking attempting he almost rucked and hit the ball straight at his own feet whilst cleaning up about 5 players in the process. Reckon Doggies got 3 crumbing goals as a direct result of this.

Physically I think Jamar and Minson are pretty similar (Will may be slightly taller) so if Jamar can do a similar job to what Minson does he'll be effective.

Whether he manages to even get there is a separate matter altogether

I like your thinking... I just think Minson has a far greater engine. Off the ball I've never seen Jamar play a game like he did on Sunday, where Minson has big running games more often than not. Leading to space, getting out of the way of the other forwards. Playing up the ground. It makes a difference. I've seen Jamar look an out-and-out liability... and not just for 10 minutes here and there, but for 4 quarters.

It would have indeed been a hard call to trade our No 1 ruckman who was AA that year while at the same time we had our green and rough No 2 ruckman wanting to leave to be No 1 ruckman elsewhere. In addition our No 1 midfielder Scott Thompson also sort a transfer home.

Given rough and poorly performed Jolly went for pick 15 and the year before Peter Everitt went for #6 and #22, as the then current AA ruckman White would easily commanded a top 3 pick. What does Freddy think Collingwood would have traded with when their first pick was pick 10 in the 2004 and they believed they had a ruckman in Fraser (#1 pick in 1999)?

Its easy to make the broad brush statement then but who was honestly in the market to recruit White at his market value. On the other hand short of trading for a replacement ruckman, what were MFC going to do to cover White's loss with Jolly and Jamar?

Collingwood is only one club that IMO would have loved Jeff White - I don't believe they have ever been sold on Fraser as their number 1 ruckman. The fact they didn't have a top 10 doesn't preclude a 3 way deal or a player and a pick, etc... In addition, Jolly would not have wanted to leave if White was leaving, he left for greater opportunity. My point is that it was entirely predictable that we were never going to get the value out of White that we likely would have gotten from trading him when the centre circle rule came in, and we should have made a hard decision then. I think we are living the consequences now.

You make a good point there... but consider this. Charman and Minson will take 4-6 marks minimum, and get around the 20-mark for possessions. Charman even more. What makes these ruckmen the best is that they add possessions to their ruckwork. White's the same.

Even if Jamar got to a position similar to Lade, where he smashed them in the ruck, then went forward and was good for some linking marks, and 2 goals a game. But again, an opposition coach would be thrilled to see this because he can just plonk his biggest guy on him, and he knows his player will get 10 touches a quarter, will play loose, run off him, and still be able to rest...

It's not that he doesn't get enough possessions. It's that he gets almost none at all. More often than not he got 4 last season. He got 9 on Sunday. And look how well he went! If we can get him up to 15... well then I reckon he might be in for some long matches in the ruck for the demons.

I know Jamar has a way to go to prove he is an AFL footballer, but I think people should give him the benefit of the doubt, and this season, to show something.

Our development strategy for rucks under ND was to starve youngsters of opportunity until they either left to further their careers or were delisted. White rucked for 20-25 minutes per quarter for years. Jamar and P.J have been victims of this early in their careers, both are now showing a bit with more opportunity. It's hard to rack up possessions from the bench.

Jamar's value on Sunday can't be just measured in disposal's or hitouts. His aggression, tackling, bullocking etc after the centre bounces was responsible for several clearances. It wasn't so much his possessions, but rather the ones he created for McLean, McDonald et al that mattered

Your Post Here

I can see what you meant about Jamar being a lil slower than Will etc (not sure if this is the case as I've never really paid much attention) but even Jamar hitting a pack at a couple of ks slower than Will is going to cause some damage. Jamar's motor doesn't seem too bad either but it's hard to tell unless you've watched in Sandy colours cos he spends 60% of AFL games on the bench.

As for Hille vs Minson: Hille is a ruckman by trade, not a forward, so I don't consider his slight advantage there something to pick him for.

You want the biggest player/s in your side to be a physical presence which is where Minson kills Hille (and Laycock).

As for what Dons supporters think of them: Hille and Laycock will most likely play out their careers at the one club simply cos ruckman are fairly hard to go by.

Hille won't get any better I wouldn't of thought and is probably, at this stage, just back-up standard. Reckon if Laycock gets a bot more consistency he'll be a more than handy ruckman, but don't think he will and could probably be used as trade bait if the coaching staff saw fit