Lucifers Hero
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Posts posted by Lucifers Hero
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For what it is worth I wonder if the result was any different if CAS only reviewed the decision of the AFL Tribunal ie it wasn't 'de novo' at all. From what I can tell there was no new material as evidence. Players and an expert or two were called as witnesses. But the damning evidence of no player noting on their ASADA testing forms of substances given, was presented to the AFL Tribunal. But ASADA did not make a song and dance about it (...maybe they didn't trust the AFL Tribunal and knew it was their trump card should it get to CAS) but at least covered the bases to make sure it wasn't rejected as 'new' evidence.
The major differences between the AFL Tribunal and the CAS hearing appear to be:
- CAS called witnesses: One expert who testified the chemical makeup of what Alvi compounded had a 97% fit to that of TB4. Or was that 99%, I don't recall. It called 7 players as witnesses. The player interviews were already submitted as evidence. So was their call to testify new evidence? If the expert's testimony is eliminated it leaves 15 of the 16 'threads in a rope' in tact.
- WADA relied on a 'threads in a rope' rather than 'links in the chain' approach to which the players counsel did not object at the beginning nor at the end of the hearing.
- CAS placed a higher bar on 'comfortable' satisfaction' than the AFL Tribunal which is its right.
So the players may find it a tough task to prove it was, in fact 'de novo'!!
Hopefully, the appeal won't get past first base...btw it has not been lodged...they have till Wed and may yet see the light and not go ahead with this charade. Players no longer profess innocence. It is now: 'you went about it the wrong way'. Spare me!
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According to ChipLG the players did raise the question of CAS's right to hear the case 'de novo' before it considered the evidence: "An objection to CAS hearing the case de novo, or anew, was raised in lengthy pre-hearing submissions by the players and dismissed by CAS in a single-page letter. In its judgment, CAS noted that its principal task was not to review the merits of previous decisions but to determine for itself whether an athlete had doped".
I couldn't find a copy of that letter on line to see what it says. I guess it comes down to the basic role of CAS: To review a previous decision or decide for itself!
Even Chip acknowledges it is a highly technical area: "The case before the Swiss Federal Supreme Court pits Australian contractual law against a guiding principle of the World Anti-Doping Code. The case will turn on a fine legal point; whether the changes to the 2015 AFL anti-doping code were procedural or substantial."
The downside of this is that the saga re Jobe's brownlow will go on for another year...the AFL won't take it from him while an appeal is pending. Maybe they hope we will all forget about it.
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Neil Mitchell interviewed Michele Cowan the other day: http://www.3aw.com.au/news/melbourne-coach-michelle-cowan-speaks-with-neil-mitchell-on-3aw-mornings-20160204-gmlbsz.html
The track goes for 8+minutes so here are the main points I heard:
- Mitchell’s first up question: ‘When can we have a flag?’
- Her role is to work with 1st and 2nd year players and help identify leaders
- Very glowing of Peter Jackson: …the most forward thinking man she has met and a remarkable leader
- Mitchell asked if her role was player skills or motivation. Answer: both
- PJ made the call re a part-time role. She couldn’t do it full-time due to a young family. He rang her and said: 'how can we make this happen'.
I recall that as a very similar question that PJ asked Roos several times until we eventually landed him!
- Roos empowers his coaches and is very encouraging of her which helps earn player respect.
- Mitchell question: …Can you get inside Jack Watts’ head and turn him into the player he should be!! Her response: He is very different now from what she has seen in the last few years.
- Mitchell tongue-in-cheek question …Can you stop LH from running around in circles and hand balling to the opposition?
I thought Michele spoke very well and sound a fairly relaxed, quietly confident person. She will be valuable at the club. Don’t think she will take any rubbish from the players or anyone else for that matter!
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Finally someone in football land gets it and is prepared to speak up against the AFL, albeit in a small way. Port CEO says: '"Let me throw this one at you, I'm assuming all clubs said no, and I don't know that, but can you imagine what Eddie (Maguire) would have said had this ruling come down against Collingwood, there would have been hell to pay," he said..."There was a consultation process with all the other clubs ... we felt it was a unique situation that required AFL leadership - make a call and get on with it, one way or another.'
I would imagine Eddie would have been one of the 'stridently opposed'!
And this: 'He (Keith Thomas) also said Port won't pay Ryder or Monfries at all and they were last paid in January.' You have to wonder why StK has been carrying on about who is paying Carlise when the players are not allowed to be payed.
I feel for the players not been paid especially those like Ryder who has a young family. But I believe rules need to be upheld something there has been precious little of throughout this sad and sorry saga.
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This is the Age piece on top-ups: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-drugs-saga-other-clubs-with-banned-former-essendon-players-cant-replace-them-20160205-gmmzo7.html
Quote: "The AFL canvassed the remaining AFL clubs for their view of the bid by the four clubs to be given access to replacements. The clubs varied from the stridently opposed to those who didn't care".
Who do they fear: a resurgent Bulldogs, a knocking-on-finals-door Port. Certainly not us nor the Saints! Realistically, top ups won't make much difference to results and the AFL were always going to say 'no'. So I think it is very poor sportsmanship for some clubs to 'stridently oppose' the idea.
What sticks in my craw is the hypocrisy of those clubs. They sit quietly while the cheats prosper from AFL largess then squeal when clubs who have wallowed at the bottom of the ladder for the best part of the last 5 years ask for help.
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13 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:
Reputational enhancement. At the moment they are considered "officially" guilty of taking illegal substances. If they win the appeal they won't be. But nothing will really undo the damage they have already sustained in the eyes of the general public, unless the appeal unequivocally states CAS was wrong and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of wrongdoing. A big ask, I would have thought, even if they win.
I just heard Chip LG speak and he said the appeal is not based on the evidence or the decision. They are appealing on a technicality - jurisdiction and CAS's right to hear the case 'de novo'. So even if they win it won't clear their names. If they really believed they were innocent they would appeal the decision and the evidence.
It is the same Hird's/EFC challenge in the Fed court on a technicality ie the legality of the AFL and ASADA doing a 'joint' investigation. It was (and Hird's later appeal) emphatically turned down.
I'm a bit over their attempts to use 'the law' to get out of accepting their guilt as if technicalities will erase the taint of being cheats.
Let's hope the player appeal is thrown out of the Swiss court just as emphatically as Hird/EFC in the Fed court!!
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1 hour ago, Jrono64 said:
I went to school with her and she's a gold coast girl.
Both her and Jaegers girlfriend went to my school and they're both friends. I've met them both before and Dion is the more likely to move down but I wouldn't count Jaeger out of moving either just not probably to the Dees.
From what Dions girlfriend has said in the past, she would want to move down to Melbourne.
She is best friends with Daniel Gorringes girlfriend who has just finished her degree and likely looking for a job down in Melbourne.
Sorry, I know like this just sounds like a lot of school yard gossip but I lived with Jaegers Girlfriend and she was in my year at school and the other two were good friends and in the grade below, while Gorringes girlfriend was in my classes at uni.
For some reason just about every girl in my grade or the grade below is going out with a suns player (another friend is going out with Tom Lynch).
Always good to get some inside info. Thanks.
Let us know if you pick up any other info around the traps.
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Had a browse on bfessendon to see the reaction to the appeal and noticed this from none other than out occasional interloper, 'Lance Uppercut': "...And yeah, I've been pretty open about the fact I think the CAS probably came to the right decision, but got there in a very strange way..."
He hasn't been back to DL since the CAS decision but kudos to him for taking the suspensions on the chin.
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Good article - gives Misson update on some rehab players and some insight on how we will approach the NAB games. http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2016-02-05/well-attack-nab-challenge-misson
This bit from Misson is especially good: “Jack Trengove is coming towards the end of his rehab. He’s been doing a lot of work – and a lot of football work – in the last couple of weeks and he’s probably a week and a half away from joining in with the group. We feel like we’ve got his load pretty right. More importantly, he’s feeling really confident in that foot and he’s looking forward to joining in with the group – and the group’s looking forward to having him.”...Misson.
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2 minutes ago, daisycutter said:
that doesn't mean cas will accept any appeal. still would be another step required before an appeal could go ahead
Good point. Lets hope not.
2 minutes ago, Choke said:Surely not.
Which players? All 34? Or NLM's 'splinter' group?
The impression I had is not all 34 will appeal...read all about it in The Australian tomorrow!! Chip LG scoop.
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Oh No!!!
SEN have just announced the players WILL appeal.
God knows on what grounds!
If they lose they will get a year and maybe 2
EFC insurers to pay for appeal.
Essendon insurers set to fund appeal to Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland
As I said in an earlier post - easy to appeal when it someone else's money!
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38 minutes ago, Redleg said:
He is not a lawyer he is an Accountant. Hope he can add and subtract.
Thanks for the clarification...should have thought of that...all lawyers are 'street smart'
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Peter Jess's 'thought bubbles' are going to get him into strife: "Essendon doctor Bruce Reid has also taken umbrage with the report, and is believed to have threatened defamation action". http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-saga-nathan-lovettmurray-reported-to-be-lodging-an-appeal-against-cas-verdict-20160204-gmm8fb.html
'Marsh also took a swipe at Jess, who earlier had said he hoped the players association would help fund an appeal against the CAS verdict. Marsh said his association had not funded any of the 34 players' legal bills so far during the supplements saga and would not change that policy. "Peter's comments probably show how disconnected he is to actually what's happening here with the 34 players," Marsh said'.
For a lawyer Jess doesn't seem to have a lot of 'street smarts'. He needs to heed the the old 'engage brain before mouth' principle
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1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:
The appeal costs being borne by ALFPA means it is being paid for by the AFL (who 100% fund it). As a fan I am outraged the AFL using monies that should go to clubs or game development elsewhere for this futile exercise. If all AFL players funded their union (the AFLPA) then they would be complaining loudly. As long as it is other people's money ie the AFL's no-one says anything.
If Essendon is supposedly supporting all 34 players why is it not funding appeals, I wonder. A rhetorical question, I know but that is where the funding responsibility really lies.
An update: I was just listening to SEN and a comment from Paul Marsh of the AFLPA answered my question above about EFC funding appeals. He said the AFLPA won't be funding anything and are in discussions with EFC to fund appeals if any.
He went on to say if Peter Jess believes the AFLPA will fund his appeal for NLM it shows 'how disconnected' he really is from the process. Peter Jess seems to come out with a new thought bubble each day...it is losing him more credibility each day.
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3 minutes ago, Ted Fidge said:
That could explain why the AFL is happy to fund the AFLPA. To minimise the chance of dissent.
... and for those who do dissent, there are always the unfortunate possibilities of having to travel to Perth twice, multiple Sunday twilight games, only playing big drawing clubs away, etc.
Same thing for journos who get a bit too "investigative" and not enough "the players were duped". Be awful if someone's accreditation got pulled.
You are so right TedF! Machiavellism in the extreme!
For the part above that is highlighted: that sounds like MFC's predicament of recent years and some to come...the AFL determined to maintain the status quo: Fete the rich and powerful regardless of their crimes and shackle the weak.
I despair at the state of the game and the connivance of the people supposedly 'managing' it.
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8 hours ago, Whispering_Jack said:
Based on reports I have read about the queries NLM made to Reid, Jess seems to be dealing with different sets of injections. In any event, the CAS Arbitral Award dealt with this issue. Further, NLM's Counsel at CAS did not object to the jurisdiction, procedures or fairness of the hearing both at its commencement or conclusion.
If the cost of such an appeal is to be borne by the AFLPA, if I was a player I would be outraged at the use of association funds for this futile exercise.
The appeal costs being borne by ALFPA means it is being paid for by the AFL (who 100% fund it). As a fan I am outraged the AFL using monies that should go to clubs or game development elsewhere for this futile exercise. If all AFL players funded their union (the AFLPA) then they would be complaining loudly. As long as it is other people's money ie the AFL's no-one says anything.
If Essendon is supposedly supporting all 34 players why is it not funding appeals, I wonder. A rhetorical question, I know but that is where the funding responsibility really lies.
WJ, do you have any idea why other clubs are not up in arms about all the favours the AFL is giving EFC?
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Quote: "If the four affected clubs are granted permission to sign top-up players, Essendon will have to hasten its signing process with four new clubs on the prowl for state league talent...Alternatively, it is believed the AFL has canvassed a potential mini-draft which would eliminate the possibility of a bidding war between two or more clubs over a player".
This smacks of the AFL stalling further so that EFC get all the players they want first!
I don't care if we get a top-up or not and I doubt the club will be too fussed either way. But this is farce on farce! As Healey said: just make a decision, Gil!
Footnote: apologies for bold font for some reason I can't get rid of it on this post
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A group of between 10 and 15 are weighing up whether to link with renowned sports lawyer Tony Nolan QC and personal injury law barrister Gavin Coldwell.
Lawyer Chris Pollard is part of the team put together by player agent Peter Jess: Former Bomber Nathan Lovett-Murray has signed, while Dyson Heppell, Dustin Fletcher, Jake Melksham, Mark McVeigh and Jake Carlisle are among those understood to be in serious discussions.
Skipper Jobe Watson could also yet link with Nolan although, as part of a group of players managed by Elite Sports Properties, he may remain with Slater and Gordon, the AFLPA's preferred lawyers.
Two former Bombers – Bulldogs Stewart Crameri and Brent Prismall – had engaged independent lawyers earlier in the saga.
This is going to go on for years if they don't all settle out of court.
At least they have the good sense to forget about the injunction. You would think this makes an appeal futile since by the time it is heard their suspension would be over.
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A bizarre thing about this is that there are 5 clubs in the NT which means they will be duplicating their time and resources up there. Not very good use of AFL funds to my mind. Not only that we are up there competing with clubs who have buckets of money to splash around up there.
I can't see us getting any leverage or benefit up there.
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The EFC players that were instrumental in their 2015 win against us will still be there: Daniher, Goddard, Baguley and to a lesser extent Zacharakis. The only one that really played well that day that is missing is Hurley. As adec said they wanted the win more.
Look at the list of their suspended 12. Only half were regular best 22. Many of the 12 were out injured last year. EFC will put in some decent performances in 2016.
A few teams will get burnt for underestimating them. I pray we are not one of them.
No room for complacency.
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All good preparation for getting our Women's Team AFL License. After all these ladies are the coach and captain of our Women's team. Preemptive signing up the talent.
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7 minutes ago, Hellfish said:
I'm starting to think that if enough people forget/ignore Tasmania, that it may just go away
Good point! An AFL oversight?
Hawthorn or North may yet claim it!
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The AFL has announced its funding plans for academies, effectively club 'zones'. http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2016-02-03/vic-clubs-handed-funding-for-academies
The article says: "The clubs were consulted in the past 12 months and are understood to have accepted the allocation in general terms". Suitably vague making it hard to tell if clubs agreed or not!
The zone allocations are:
Western Bulldogs – Western Melbourne, Wimmera, Mallee, South West Victoria, Ballarat, (North Ballarat Rebels & Western Jets)
Essendon – North West Melbourne (Calder Cannons), West Arnhem (NT)
Melbourne – South East Melbourne (Dandenong Stingrays), Alice Springs (NT)
Collingwood – Central Melbourne (Oakleigh Chargers), Barkly (NT)
St Kilda – Inner Southern Melbourne (Sandringham Dragons), Frankston LGA
North Melbourne – Melbourne and Wyndham LGAs (Calder Cannons & Western Jets)
Hawthorn – Eastern/Whitehorse LGAs (Eastern Ranges), Gippsland (Gippsland Power), Katherine (NT)
Carlton – Northern Melbourne (Northern Knights)
Geelong – Geelong /Hampden (Geelong Falcons), East Arnhem (NT)
Richmond – Goulburn Murray, Bendigo, Sunraysia, North Central (Bendigo Pioneers and Murray Bushrangers)
I don't now why Vic 'power' clubs get so much of NT - yes I know it is big, but we are the ones that invested our team and games there and have built the relationships.
Even having Dandenong Stingrays worries me (as a fan base) because Hawthorn will soon be moving to the neighbouring suburb of Dingley. They get Eastern Ranges and Gippsland Power and our bit of Dandenong Stingrays turf is hemmed in the middle. At face value that doesn't look very fair, especially if in time these zones bring 'academy draft bidding rights' with them
No clues in the article how they were allocated! In light of recent decisions it could be the AFL looking after its 'pet' clubs and everyone else picks up the scraps. I would prefer we had a clear run at a zone rather than a team - hard to build an identity with a team, easier to do with a geographic zone. The allocations look a bit of a hotch-potch and not zones at all. Can't feel too enthused about our allocation (or lack of).
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The Ox just reported that Port offered Jamar more money than EFC who had put a deadline on their offer. Jamar had to accept the lower offer.
The deadline very conveniently ended before the AFL decision on top-up players. The 'handball' to Dillon and the other 13 clubs was simply a stalling tactic! How contrived!! Yep, let the cheats take the best available and b.....r the other 4 clubs!!
I bet the AFL would have made a decision earlier and in favour of the other 4 affected clubs if one was Collingwood (Eddie would be squealing) or Carlton (we all know who the AFC Chairman played for).
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THE BOMBERS' SWISS ADVENTURE
in Melbourne Demons
Posted
49! Really!
I swear I thought he was in his 60's...he certainly looks it!