Arsene Wenger

I see what you're saying, but Neeld didn't have the luxury of top-up players from the AFL, which are actually a product of their senior AFL coach and the luck of them playing in the VFL squad by virtue of the depth of the list created by the coach at the next level. Surely it's a combination of that and Williams' coaching ability, but I'm much more inclined to rate the ability of Ayres last season at Port Melb. And from knowing the BFL, there's no other reason why Ocean Grove won those finals. They didn't have significantly better lists than other teams at that level. In fact, they usually had inferior teams, especially to Geelong Ammos when they were practically like an allstar team.

That's subjective and dependant on your opinion of Scully. Based on probably just as brief encounters and observations of Col, I'd agree on the conclusions. Col has had serious injuries to overcome and that has probably lead to him being introspective to a certain degree. He has also proven to be immature and thoughtless during his time at the club, in spite of his obvious talent. But he has never had the single-minded determination to succeed that you see in some other players. My opinion is that he's in it for Col, and Col enjoys just being an AFL player and the perks that come along with it. His motivation in the past has been that it might be all taken away from him. That's just how I see it, and I'd love to see Col do something that proves to me that I'm wrong.

Sheedy's strength has always been in motivating and managing people. He is not a great coach by any stretch of the imagination, but that's why he has Choco Williams there to be the real coach. He has always had a great team of assistants to do the coaching for him. Mark Thompson, Mark Harvey, Dean Bailey, Matthew Knights, Terry Daniher, Neale Daniher, Robert Shaw, Alan Richardson, Gary O'Donnell, the list goes on. Not all great head coaches, but at the very least accomplished assistants. And really, that's what Malthouse has done too, although I think he knows the game better and is less of an accomplished spruiker. Sheedy wasn't the right coach for us because we were a club without the profile, the resources and the money to give him what he needed to succeed with MFC. Nor was Bailey, obviously. Then again, maybe Sheedy would've been able to better sell tanking to the league, MFC supporters and the AFL public? Since we were stuck in a position where that was the only option. Making him the right coach, maybe? In any case, pointless retrospection.

Been coming for a long time. I said 2 years ago Beamer only had a couple of years left in him. Since then he has dominated clearances for a period, but he is still a one-trick pony in a game that demands much more. Adapt or perish.

FFS... The only mature-bodied players we'd be able to attract would be NQR ones. We were trying the whole time to attract the decent ones and the best we got was bloody Joel Macdonald. Sydney did it well, but they managed to pick up the very few decent discards on offer. Plus they've been able to offer something we couldn't - a winning club in a city with a significantly smaller spotlight. I even offered St Kilda as a comparision, for a club littered with stars that tried to do the same - and ended up with some shocking names. You'd have us even further in the mire, for a lesser benefit. Congratulations.

His assessment is actually quite accurate. I'm not blinded by man-love for our players. I think Col is very talented, but seriously lacking in ambition. In a team sense, anyway.

Don't you understand what you're saying? Fill the list with more NQR mature bodied players, which are already THE VERY PROBLEM, and not have any of the talented kids... that's a solution to nothing.

I think you could be correct, but it's the ones who have grown too big for their boots. Mental children enjoying playing at being an AFL player, without the required commitment or nous. Doing the easy things and unwilling to do those that come hard. Resisting change because they are very comfortable in their position as a "star" of the MFC. I'm confident it will be corrected with time, and the ones that go will be replaced by those who are willing to comply. Moloney, Sylvia, Davey, Jones, Green, Jamar... I don't care who it is. If they don't care, they can go. None are irreplaceable.

That's not correct. We lured Mitch Clark. But it was then.

Don't be disingenuous. We don't have a bevy of stars to prop up the NQR senior players. St Kilda have had, and still do for the time being.

Little or no buy-in from the players who are allegedly fighting it... Sounds plausible, but hard to say.

THis is my thinking, but who comes in? Tapscott, Strauss, McDonald, Couch, Dunn..? I also think Magner will be out with injury.

That would have been preferrable, but we were in the unfortunate position of not being able to attract any top line trade targets. We're much better off with the draft picks, instead of mortgaging our future for NQR mature bodied players. Sure Sydney did it well, but we could have ended up like St Kilda - no decent youth to speak of after years of bringing in: Michael Gardiner, Charlie Gardiner, Aaron Fiora, Cain Ackland, Mark McGough, Adam Pattison, Fergus Watts, Shane Birss, Adam Schneider, Sean Dempster, Steven King, Farren Ray, Colm Begley, Zac Dawson, Andrew Lovett, Brett Peake, Jesse Smith, Ryan Gamble, Dean Polo. Once their current guns retire or leave, there will be a steep drop off.

Of this list list, free agency status mark ups in red. (Jamar and Moloney added) http://www.afl.com.au/tabid/208/default.aspx?newsid=130821

I wouldn't mind this approach either. But i think Bartram and Macdonald need to be dropped.

If there is any petulance from the playing group, it was there well before Neeld took charge. His role is to rid the club of what was already entrenched there, most heavily evidenced by 186.

Sadly, from what I know of Beamer, I have the same concerns. It'll either make or break him. I worry also that his agility is too poor, and he is a great player if the ball is being shoved down his throat, but is a one-trick pony and not very good defensively. Tackling hard does not equal good defensively. But at least he's one that we could get a serious return on if we were to trade. What's his free agency status?

One step back to take 2 steps forward. I'm perplexed by those that expected an already bad side, learning a gameplan that is almost the polar opposite to the previous one, to just turn it on from Round 1 and be able to implement it effectively. History shows that such drastic changes sometimes work, but they always take a significant amount of time to integrate into the playing list. As Neeld has pointed out, some players who thought they were firmly entrenched in the squad, will either make significant adjustments or find themselves looking for another club (probably in another league). It'll take time. But I don't think it will take as long to turn this around as some think.

Are you serious? 90% of kids are skinny. Just because someone is a manchild does not mean they are the best choice. Tapscott was built like a man at 16, but he hasn't exactly taken the AFL by storm. Since 2007 it should have been obvious to all and sundry that we would not be able to compete until the gun kids we had were the senior players in the team, and the old guard was well & truly into retirement. Davey, Green, Rivers et al have never been good enough to lead a team on their own. They were very handy complimentary players, and nothing more. Now and for the last few years they are exposed by their inability to be main driving force. Hence we have 20 and 22 year old co-captains.

What are you talking about? That makes no sense.

Well then you're obviously NOT aware how bleak it was, because for it to have been much worse, there'd no longer be a MFC. You'd be past the worst and into non-existence.

Depends on what your KPIs are and what you are trying to achieve. If you're purely trying to get the 4 points, you may have made a few desperate moves that could've made a bit of difference. But at some stage you need to leave the players in their positions to learn to stick to the gameplan through adversity, and play the way Neeld wants them to play. I'm not overly concerned about a loss at the start of the season that I was half expecting. To NOT expect an adjustment period is what I see as unrealistic. Neeld is in this for the longterm. Re: the issue of commitment and players not showing enough effort, when you are second-guessing your first instincts, and unsure where to apply that effort, you get results like we saw yesterday. Remember that the players are trying to unlearn a gameplan they have spent years learning to adhere to.

What names could we have attracted with our cap space that we didn't already try to entice? WHo would you have traded, and for what? Clubs aren't looking to trade gun 3rd year players for guys like Green and Davey, once great, but with only a few years left. Once they have that bird in the hand, they want to hang onto it. WE might've got a few handy draft picks, but then we'd have been even more of a kindergarten. It'd be like starting up GWS in melbourne, but with existing prejudices.

I think most in this thread are confusing what our gameplan is with what they saw yesterday and interpreted from that. 2 different things.

We've gone through serious pain. I don't think you understand how bleak it would've been if we'd had that sort of clean out. Our list was in a perilous state, but contributing to that was a dysfunctional and underfunded football department.