Macca

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37 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

i think it's often underestimated how hard it is to change a game plan mid-season

it's happened, and it's worked, and we definitely changed our entire structure and the way we set up mid-2023, but less so in 2022

when you've got time to work on tactics and roles is in the off-season, not when yr in the hunt for a premiership with the style of play that you execute, as i'd argue was the case in the last couple of years

fwiw, i thought hunter had a strong first season in red and blue, and we paid little to get him; he is a senior player in a team that is experienced and in the hunt for premierships and i think will continue to be so in 2024

The other thing that should be taken into account is if the players are adhering to the game plan with their entries into the forward line, then blaming only one player is unfair

Langdon, Petracca, Clarrie, Viney, Sparrow etc all turn over the ball in the same manner (heading forward).  So the clanger count is a team-wide issue not just the one player. 

And it can be strongly argued that it's not a player issue but a game plan issue

7 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I've never liked his playing for free kicks and what a surprise with the interpretation change he stopped getting them last year. I don't like the way he attacks the ball, especially with how much his aerial game has diminished. I didn't like that he was having issues getting through preseasons and losing pace and penetration on his kicking. If it's personal in any way it's because I don't like his off field behaviour and didn't think we needed to add that to our group. 

Possessions mean little to me if you don't do anything with them, especially in an outside role with a strong half back line and midfield feeding you the ball.

I was literally at training yesterday where the focus was on bringing the ball back through the corridor, especially with run and carry in the handball drills but also in the full ground drill. Maybe that's a coaching change with Yze out and McQualter in, but I'd argue that coaching change needed to be made in mid 2022 not now. Plus you can still use the ball around the boundary and hit targets, most of Hunter's up and under kicks went to no one or the opposition. He found targets in the preseason then couldn't do it when the real stuff was happening.

Taj Woewodin is a bit more off the pace than I would've liked and I don't think Windsor is ready just yet, although he does a few excellent things with raw pace. So it's Billings or Brayshaw as the likely wing options and we might like them elsewhere. So I've softened my stance that yes I'd like Lachie back somewhat sooner. I'd never seriously wish injury on a demons player either, I'd just like coaches to try some alternatives than a declining player who spent most of the year demonstrating the same flaws. 

That's a better type of post

I'd also argue that we need to use our wings in a much more robust manner and I would look at switching the wings so the boundary line is not their friend

Also, constantly kicking into a crowded forward line often doesn't do the kicker any favours

We need to move the ball with way more speed and more use of the corridor ... in a more scientific manner

It's pleasing that we are spending a lot more time practising a better approaching to the forwards (that will help players like Hunter)

So I thank you and others for the training reports

8 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

JT is a genius. He deserves every bit of praise he receives. He is one reason why we won’t need to accept the dreaded re-build that hitherto seemed inevitable.

 At a Gosch’s session a few weeks ago I asked him if I could get a pic with him. He asked me why him. He was surprised and probs a little embarrassed when I told him that imho he’s the most valuable person at our Club. The two men with him at the time teased him a little about the selfie request which only served to make him even more embarrassed. So now I’ve got a pic of me and a red-faced JT 😂

Yeah, we don't know a lot about Jason as he is more in the background.  I'm intrigued on how we managed to get him from the Pies as they wouldn't have wanted to lose him

And Eddie didn't let him go easily as he wouldn't release him from his contract until it expired at the end of 2012

The other point is when we lost Burgess at the end of the 2021 season.  Was it a coincidence that we ran out of legs in 2022? It wasn't injuries, that happened last year.   And that's not meant as a knock on Griffiths

The other part that should remain a focus (at the club) is to not make the same sort of mistakes again.  *Learnings*

North Melbourne obviously didn't take note when they embarked on not replacing experience with experience.  Too many young players in the actual starting 23

Again, they went too young and then ended up losing game after game after game.  Until it became embarrassing

It reached a point where they needed handouts (draft picks) Yet, the problem was their own doing.  Many would argue that is was almost a carbon copy on what we did.  Except I don't believe either club is or was on dripfeed ... that was the exaggeration  

Whilst others here might fret over a few umpiring decisions or other such trivialities, I'm far more concerned with making sure that Jason Taylor is secured for the future

Bookies have us at 1.50 to make the 8 and 2.50 to miss the 8

3.00 Top 4

9.00 to win the flag

#GambleResponsibly

16 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

Good thread, the only thing I've missed Macca (and I admit to skimming some of the thread, especially the moaning) is the bit about recruiting Goodwin. Roos has now managed a transition twice, both have been winners. If this isn't demonstration of 'culture' as a factor in success I don't know what is. Very healthy ego's at footy clubs, (Roos not exactly a wall flower either) so mad props for this aspect to Roos transformation of Melbourne. And apart from Goodwin I thought picking out Daniel Cross was huge for the club in terms of training standards, still wish he was with us.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-18/demons-appoint-goodwin-to-coaching-panel/5753060

Well yeah, and the AFL stepping in placing PJ as the CEO before we secured Roos was another massive change in direction

PJ then pursues Roos like there's no tomorrow and refused to give up on the idea.  Thank you, Peter Jackson

Another huge sliding doors moment was the Swans not releasing Stuart Dew as we had him earmarked to take over from Roos

Do we win the flag if Stuie Dew coaches us?  Who knows? 

I'm reminded that Goodwin's mantra coming in to the top job was 'Fearless Football' and if a measurement of that is a hard at it attitude and contested ball, then he succeeded with that mantra

Would Stuie Dew have gone in that same direction? (Fearless Football)

37 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I think a lot of it does come down to development more so then the pick itself.

There is a general feeling that during the Bailey era, we recruited based based on speed and athleticism because one of Dean Bailey's strengths was that whilst his record was sub par, he was actually ahead of the game with where the game was going in terms of moving the footy with such speed and slingshot off half back. No coincidence that the likes of Hawthorn, Richmond and Collingwood have had success over the journey purely based on game plan that was build off quick ball movement and still is in today's game with Collingwood being elite at that.

We recruited the right players at the time but our development was very sub par and it was very evident. 

You put a Jack Watts, Sam Blease and Jack Trengrove in a Hawthorn and Geelong jumper at the time and they would have absolutely thrived.

Thankfully, no development issues with us. Actually, now there's simply no excuses. 

Yes but our contested ball back then was below par.  We were playing an outside game with very few extractors at the stoppages

Bruise free?  There was a lot of truth to that jibe.  I was never a Bailey fan as the list he helped build was far too inexperienced.  Bailey was the coach so the development was part of his job as well.  Another fail

He was one of those coaches who you were either all in with or the opposite.  

Later on the Hawks, Tigers & Pies were all hard at it with regards to contested ball.  We weren't and I thought we were quite soft in those years.  The 2-way running that came into the sport back then was virtually non existent at the Demons

The forward press that emerged during that time was another area that we failed to execute

We had a lot of issues and history tells us that our overall recruiting was woeful

Mind you, Neeld was even worse so that whole period was just a nightmare

8 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

@Macca whilst I'm still trying to work out the guts of this discussion, my guess is the list management team have a thorough long term plan in place which is to continue to remain as competitive as we can without bombing out. That means continuing to add value through free agency and stacking up with talent.

I think you need to have a fine balance otherwise we'll end up falling off the cliff like Hawthorn, West Coast and even Richmond are now with their current rebuild.

Geelong and Sydney have been the absolute masters in setting the benchmark on what good list management is all about with being able to stay in the top 8 contention for thr past 10 years and a bit.

One of the points of the thread is to highlight the total contrast of how we went about recruiting prior to 2012 and then from 2012 onwards

It's been a remarkable turnaround and to be honest, I never thought we could actually recruit so well

Taylor is a genius in my view and we need to make sure he doesn't get poached (we poached him from Collingwood) 

But as I pointed out to Wyl, having a great list needs to be accompanied by a top game plan.  And we have our issues with regards to a functioning forward line

Defence & midfield personnel is very good along with our zone defence, attack on the ball and contested ball.  Not too many issues there although we will have to replace May sooner or later

And you are right about the Cats & Swans so we can stay at the top if we keep making sound decisions.  But because we've got Taylor, those sound decisions can continue

In years to come we might be talking about that plane trip to Esperance that Taylor made to meet up with Tholstrup

I see Petracca gave Kolt the don't argue at practice.  I like that as it sends a message.  Let's see how the kid responds

I reckon he plays against the Swans.  Wouldn't surprise me if Windsor debuts soon after

3 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Sad, sad little people. 

And Demonland has been very quiet over the last 2 months.  The optimists & realists have left the building (they'll be back)

But I can't say I blame them for having a sabbatical.  Constantly engaging with the miserable joyless types can wear you down

It's like a Monty Python sketch in this place

The Department of Miserable Pessimists vs The Department of Super Optimists

John Cleese & Michael Palin as Heads of the Departments

11 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

That’s putting it mildly, Macca. I’d say something like “aggressively belligerent” is closer to the mark. 

I wouldn't go that far but I'm not sure DS is bothered with any pushback

He actually posts quite well most of the time and he knows his footy but then there are the 'moments' haha

Most of the time it doesn't bother me but the thrust of the thread leans heavily towards the club getting it's act together and might be a bit too positive for those constantly looking for fault

In other words, it's difficult to come in with the whinging

And I knew that beforehand.  So the reaction does not surprise me (with certain types) 

As previously stated, some people are only happy when they've got something to complain about

And the usual suspects arrived at the scene on point

They've got nothing to complain about so they attack the notion of the thread

28 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

This thread is all very well and good, but it doesn’t mention anything about plateauing over the last 2 years. 
By that I maintain the Gameplan stayed the same. 
Mass entries into the Forwardline with very average conversion rates, 2 wasted years imo 

We are stacked with a very talented list who did not convert well enough 

It better look different in 2024….

Many have made mention of the forward line entry issue 

So from all accounts, according to how we are training, the issue is being addressed with faster and more direct movement of the ball in the 13 on 13 scratch practice

Not a lot of bombing either being reported by the Demonland scouts

So we've built a terrific list and continue to improve on the list but it doesn't end there.  We're not going to magically just win because we have loads of talent

Our departed midfield coach (Yze) and forward line coach (Stafford) are/were accountable.  As well as the head coach

In fact, if we leave Yze & Stafford out of the discussion, what roles do/did they have?  

The way I see it is that it's a MC issue in a think-tank type operation. 

i.e. The coaching group make the decisions

And we (they) need to change tack

On 16/01/2024 at 21:29, DeeSpencer said:

Wouldn’t be bad news if he was out for 38 weeks, yet alone back by Wednesday 

I can't imagine hating on one of my own players like you do.  What happened?  Did he fresh-air you at a meet-and-greet?  

538 possessions last year says hello by the way

And his kicking around the boundary line is a coaching directive in case you haven't noticed

All our players do it as we're not a corridor footy team when advancing forward

22 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Because there’s not actually anything to discuss and I still can’t work out the contention. 

I enjoy the level of self indulgence but I have nothing to add. I’m delightfully stumped. 

I'm not surprised you don't get it as your way of posting is quite confrontational and you rarely prefer to discuss matters in a mature manner

You're the shock-jock of demonland but each to their own. It takes all types and I'm all for free speach

So how you post doesn't particularly bother me nor do I ever learn much from your utterings

You like to stir the pot and if you don't see yourself that way, I'd be surprised

As for being self indulgent 

Pot Kettle Black

12 minutes ago, Lexinator said:

Exactly. Just unnecessary. I like travelling down memory lane, makes you appreciate our flag win more and where the club is today, a lot more better than back then! The foundations of our success were built during this time, thanks for the thread @Macca

Not everyone is going to like the topic of a thread or indeed the content of a thread, Lex

Each to their own

The threads I've started have nearly always been a bit left of centre but are designed to make people think a bit sideways

The last 2 threads I started were about the drafting process and outcomes along with the other being an in depth view on our inside 50 forays in the 2021 GF (that one was hard work!)

So I view the sport from a technical viewpoint much like I view test cricket or the NFL

But it's a very tribal game and we don't like losing.  And we often don't react well to losing

For instance, the umpires are often seen as the bigger enemy especially in a close loss

And the Maynard incident will never be forgotten.  We all want revenge but from my point of view the best way to enact revenge is to beat the Pies, fair & square

That way you hold your head up and win with class.  And make no mistake we can beat them but we need a better game plan in order to beat them

And that's where it gets technical

Footnote: If someone was to 'accidently' run through Maynard the next time we play them, I'm not going to mind

2 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

A wonderful problem to have. Lord knows, it’s a “problem” we want to always have. Overlapping levels of talent and development is key. Along with, as you say, coaching, admin and Board stability. 

Salary cap constraints can mean that you have to let a player or 2 go but if you get draft capital coming back then you can top up the talent with top class draftees that are on the minimum salary

So it is possible to stay at the top

But you have to be smart about it as the playing group can be tight and departing a well liked player can be problematical and upset the culture

But again, we're not there yet but it would be a great problem to have

I've also been told over the years that Norm Smith's aim was to be 5 goals better than every other team in terms of talent.  And by the looks of it, he succeeded exceedingly well!!

Footy has changed dramatically over the years but many of the same principles still apply, Civ

26 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Why are some people questioning the creation of this thread? Macca has introduced a footy-related discussion on a footy forum. I don’t see a problem. 🤷‍♀️ 

It's a positive message too on how far we have come as a footy club in a relatively short space of time 

The rise started with the recruiting and the overhaul of the list.  By the end of 2016 we were on the cusp of finals and of course 5 years on from that 2013 off-season we did play finals and won 2 finals.  A bit of a setback in 2019 but 2 years later the premiership

But what excites me the most is the ongoing recruitment.  I've got mates who follow teams that won heaps of flags and the question I've always asked them was how many good to top players they had during those flag years

The answer was always 16+ often up to the whole 22+ ... and that's what it takes

So our team having that many good players is not something we've seen very often.  I rate coaching, admin and Board stability as well but to me it's always been about levels of talent and how many

So from here on in I expect the list to get better and better and the only issue we should have are salary cap contraints (a nice problem to have) 

Footnote:  Old mate Dave tells me that during the Smith era we regularly had 3-5 quality players not getting a game

Now that's what I'd like to see as that creates competition within the ranks (again, a nice problem to have)

1 hour ago, D Rev said:

I do understand the frustration of going out in straight sets, but I'm still more upset by the years 2007-2017, and so anythin better than that is like the Swiss flag (a big plus).

If we kicked straight against the Pies it would have been 18.8, not 8.18 (I think) - which would have won us the game.  Poor kicking is poor football.  I agree on the point around Stafford in particular, in many ways it feels like the forward line is the forgotten child behind defense and the mids.

The thread was not designed to highlight how poorly run we were back then, but more so on how well run we are now

Especially with regards to recruiting.  Of the 31 that went over that 3 year stretch, roughly 26 gave very little service to the club in terms of output.  That's the harsh reality even though I'm sure they all tried their best

That's how poor our recruiting was prior to 2012

Normally, when that many leave a club over a 3 year stretch, there's a fair smattering of players who have given good service or who are looking for greener pastures through lack of opportunity

And as @Little Goffy pointed out, nowadays we keep adding good players without losing good players to retirement as yet.  That will happen eventually as Brown & T-Mac are nearly done but May & Gawn will go on for at least 2 more years you'd imagine

Jackson leaving was a bit of a blow but we picked up 3 draft picks and were able to move up in the draft to attain Tholstrup.  It remains to be seen with Jefferson but Windsor looks a fine prospect

So we're in great hands and we've come a long way and we have a very good list of players

Can anyone imagine saying such a thing half way through 2013?  

So it's not so much looking back in a morbid way, more so acknowledging a very bright future

And at the same time a timely reminder how a club can slip up and lose sight of what is needed

If a club can continually add 2 good players to an already strong list year by year, that club can remain in contention.  So you don't need 4 or 5 good players added, just 2 (that therefore allows for 2 good players leaving or retiring) 

10 minutes ago, praha said:

Geelong lost Corey, Scarlett, Enright, Wojinski, Ling, Mooney, Milburn, and Ottens in 2011, 2012, and 2013. They still finished 3rd in 2014 before missing one finals series for the decade in 2015. They lost Toohey, Stokes, Bartel, and Enright in 2016, and finished second in 2017. Add losing Ablett in 2010 as well. They finished 8th in 2018 with the league's second best percentage.

In six seasons they turned over a team that won three flags in five years and finished top 4 most seasons and made a GF and Prelim in 2020, 2021 and 2022.

We're not even close to losing what they lost in retirements over that period.

Missing finals would be a colossal failure for this group.

Yeah I've got us at a minimum of 14 & 9

But we could just miss the finals or finish 18 & 5 ... these things are notoriously hard to predict and many get it horribly wrong

But given a reasonable run with imjuries along with fixing our forward line woes, it's hard to see us missing the finals

2 hours ago, DiscoStu17 said:

I know we all look through red and blue coloured glasses here, but I honestly thought we were the best team in it last year

Not all of us look through rose coloured glasses and because of our forward line issues we weren't the best team

The Pies or Lions might have beaten us even if we were at full strength.  Both teams are very good

A contender? Definitely

But best team? No

2 hours ago, DeeZone said:

Like Macca I am a bit bullish about our chances in 24 - 28 and also very keen to see what McQualter brings to the table.

I have got us playing finals but not top 4 unless we fix our forward line issues

But even with a makeshift forward line along with a stellar defence and defensive structures as well as a strong midfield, it's not hard to see at least a 14 & 9 finish as a minimum

A flag can happen as long as we are a true contender.  I'm always reminded that a team has to win 3 finals to win big and with a majeshift forward line, that's a big ask (as we found out last year)

But we've recruited with a big emphasis on the forward line so we just need a bit of luck with injuries.  The delivery forward and forwards creating separation needs to be fixed as well

Time will tell, DZ

7 minutes ago, D Rev said:

Really good post / thread and thanks very much for it.  I think it's easy to forget how we got in the position we are today, and the people that helped us along the way.  Also easy to forget is the people (and structures) that got in the way.  I maintain that Cam Schwab should still be tied to a goal post at the MCG for every fan to have a running shot at. The way he undermined the coaches and tried to make the club all about him still irks me, as does the fact that we had 8+ on the board in 2013 while Hawthorn had 4-5 (and were winning flags). 

BUT - we've learned from all that now and have the structures and mindset to adapt to the changing game (and league), and build a winning club and team.

To me the messaging from many on this site right now are the straight sets exits in the last seasons.  It's there, it's prevalent and many are quite frustrated at the outcomes that we witnessed

But to me the issues are technical, not above the shoulders.  If it was about the mindset, we might have dropped off with our attack on the ball, our 2-way running, the defensive mindset, our zone defence etc etc

We simply fell down with the connection to the forwards from the mids, the quality of the forwards and our kicking for goal ... and all that can be fixed

Yze & Stafford didn't cop enough heat either.  The default move to blame Goodwin only ignores the bigger picture

I've a feeling that we may well go medium/tall in the forward line because that's where we have better numbers in terms of personnel 

Meanwhile, we may well have had another season where we've recruited well ... we don't know yet but the additions of Tholstrup, Windsor, Fullarton, McAdam, Billings etc could well pay off. Interesting that 4 of the 5 can play forward and who knows with Windsor? 

The original title of the thread started off with 'Paul' Roos so there's that

And the content serves to highlight how poorly run we were as a club prior to Roos coming on board especially with regards to recruiting (which to my eye, is far and away the most important aspect of a club)

Also, how well run we are these days where our recruiting is fantastic

We've gone from a massive fail to at least 8.5/10 ... and that doesn't happen by accident

However, the content also highlights how easily a club can slip back if we don't continue on the path of building a great list - ongoing

I started the thread because someone here mentioned that we didn't add any good players to the team last year but we did ... McVee, JVR, Hunter & Grundy.  McVee & JVR could be better than good whilst Hunter must be doing something right if he keeps getting a game in a top 4 team ... he could use the ball better but he did have 538 disposals last season

Grundy is gone off course but the point stands and we may well add a decent player to replace him (in a year or 2)

So the thread is about recruiting good players and how we go about it (part of that is not having blind faith in one way of recruiting) 

For instance, free agency can be our friend but doesn't get talked about a lot

Adding an A grade player every couple of years or so is very important and that's why I believe we pursued Harley Reid but couldn't quite get the deal done

14 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

For reference; just from a head count of drafting we turned over 29 players in three years, 2007-2009 - I can't make the effort to check exact list changes and player trades but obviously there are a few more to add 

Over that time we got rid of a lot of experienced players.  And I believe that we left ourselves short on experience as a result

Too many young blokes and not enough wise-heads is the wrong balance.  We could have at least brought in some experience as Roos ended up doing (Lewis, Vince, Cross, Tyson, Melksham etc) 

10 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

New coach aggressively turns over a bad list is hardly a shock.

Depends on the quality of the coach and whether the new coach is in for a long rebuild.  Or has the capacity to know how to rebuild

Making hard calls is part of it too.  Some coaches are best suited to coaching an established list.  Brought in to win big

And it should be remembered that the thinking amongst many of our supporters was that the list wasn't all that bad (easier to just blame Dean Bailey (RIP) & Mark Neeld)

And not long after Dean Bailey was dismissed, he remarked that the list had premiership potential

We now know that can't have been true but we had any number of first and 2nd round picks on the list that many thought would end up being good players ... again, that didn't happen so Roos comes in and culls the list