Macca

Many have made mention of the forward line entry issue So from all accounts, according to how we are training, the issue is being addressed with faster and more direct movement of the ball in the 13 on 13 scratch practice Not a lot of bombing either being reported by the Demonland scouts So we've built a terrific list and continue to improve on the list but it doesn't end there. We're not going to magically just win because we have loads of talent Our departed midfield coach (Yze) and forward line coach (Stafford) are/were accountable. As well as the head coach In fact, if we leave Yze & Stafford out of the discussion, what roles do/did they have? The way I see it is that it's a MC issue in a think-tank type operation. i.e. The coaching group make the decisions And we (they) need to change tack

I can't imagine hating on one of my own players like you do. What happened? Did he fresh-air you at a meet-and-greet? 538 possessions last year says hello by the way And his kicking around the boundary line is a coaching directive in case you haven't noticed All our players do it as we're not a corridor footy team when advancing forward

I'm not surprised you don't get it as your way of posting is quite confrontational and you rarely prefer to discuss matters in a mature manner You're the shock-jock of demonland but each to their own. It takes all types and I'm all for free speach So how you post doesn't particularly bother me nor do I ever learn much from your utterings You like to stir the pot and if you don't see yourself that way, I'd be surprised As for being self indulgent Pot Kettle Black

Not everyone is going to like the topic of a thread or indeed the content of a thread, Lex Each to their own The threads I've started have nearly always been a bit left of centre but are designed to make people think a bit sideways The last 2 threads I started were about the drafting process and outcomes along with the other being an in depth view on our inside 50 forays in the 2021 GF (that one was hard work!) So I view the sport from a technical viewpoint much like I view test cricket or the NFL But it's a very tribal game and we don't like losing. And we often don't react well to losing For instance, the umpires are often seen as the bigger enemy especially in a close loss And the Maynard incident will never be forgotten. We all want revenge but from my point of view the best way to enact revenge is to beat the Pies, fair & square That way you hold your head up and win with class. And make no mistake we can beat them but we need a better game plan in order to beat them And that's where it gets technical Footnote: If someone was to 'accidently' run through Maynard the next time we play them, I'm not going to mind

Salary cap constraints can mean that you have to let a player or 2 go but if you get draft capital coming back then you can top up the talent with top class draftees that are on the minimum salary So it is possible to stay at the top But you have to be smart about it as the playing group can be tight and departing a well liked player can be problematical and upset the culture But again, we're not there yet but it would be a great problem to have I've also been told over the years that Norm Smith's aim was to be 5 goals better than every other team in terms of talent. And by the looks of it, he succeeded exceedingly well!! Footy has changed dramatically over the years but many of the same principles still apply, Civ

It's a positive message too on how far we have come as a footy club in a relatively short space of time The rise started with the recruiting and the overhaul of the list. By the end of 2016 we were on the cusp of finals and of course 5 years on from that 2013 off-season we did play finals and won 2 finals. A bit of a setback in 2019 but 2 years later the premiership But what excites me the most is the ongoing recruitment. I've got mates who follow teams that won heaps of flags and the question I've always asked them was how many good to top players they had during those flag years The answer was always 16+ often up to the whole 22+ ... and that's what it takes So our team having that many good players is not something we've seen very often. I rate coaching, admin and Board stability as well but to me it's always been about levels of talent and how many So from here on in I expect the list to get better and better and the only issue we should have are salary cap contraints (a nice problem to have) Footnote: Old mate Dave tells me that during the Smith era we regularly had 3-5 quality players not getting a game Now that's what I'd like to see as that creates competition within the ranks (again, a nice problem to have)

The thread was not designed to highlight how poorly run we were back then, but more so on how well run we are now Especially with regards to recruiting. Of the 31 that went over that 3 year stretch, roughly 26 gave very little service to the club in terms of output. That's the harsh reality even though I'm sure they all tried their best That's how poor our recruiting was prior to 2012 Normally, when that many leave a club over a 3 year stretch, there's a fair smattering of players who have given good service or who are looking for greener pastures through lack of opportunity And as @Little Goffy pointed out, nowadays we keep adding good players without losing good players to retirement as yet. That will happen eventually as Brown & T-Mac are nearly done but May & Gawn will go on for at least 2 more years you'd imagine Jackson leaving was a bit of a blow but we picked up 3 draft picks and were able to move up in the draft to attain Tholstrup. It remains to be seen with Jefferson but Windsor looks a fine prospect So we're in great hands and we've come a long way and we have a very good list of players Can anyone imagine saying such a thing half way through 2013? So it's not so much looking back in a morbid way, more so acknowledging a very bright future And at the same time a timely reminder how a club can slip up and lose sight of what is needed If a club can continually add 2 good players to an already strong list year by year, that club can remain in contention. So you don't need 4 or 5 good players added, just 2 (that therefore allows for 2 good players leaving or retiring)

Yeah I've got us at a minimum of 14 & 9 But we could just miss the finals or finish 18 & 5 ... these things are notoriously hard to predict and many get it horribly wrong But given a reasonable run with imjuries along with fixing our forward line woes, it's hard to see us missing the finals

Not all of us look through rose coloured glasses and because of our forward line issues we weren't the best team The Pies or Lions might have beaten us even if we were at full strength. Both teams are very good A contender? Definitely But best team? No

I have got us playing finals but not top 4 unless we fix our forward line issues But even with a makeshift forward line along with a stellar defence and defensive structures as well as a strong midfield, it's not hard to see at least a 14 & 9 finish as a minimum A flag can happen as long as we are a true contender. I'm always reminded that a team has to win 3 finals to win big and with a majeshift forward line, that's a big ask (as we found out last year) But we've recruited with a big emphasis on the forward line so we just need a bit of luck with injuries. The delivery forward and forwards creating separation needs to be fixed as well Time will tell, DZ

To me the messaging from many on this site right now are the straight sets exits in the last seasons. It's there, it's prevalent and many are quite frustrated at the outcomes that we witnessed But to me the issues are technical, not above the shoulders. If it was about the mindset, we might have dropped off with our attack on the ball, our 2-way running, the defensive mindset, our zone defence etc etc We simply fell down with the connection to the forwards from the mids, the quality of the forwards and our kicking for goal ... and all that can be fixed Yze & Stafford didn't cop enough heat either. The default move to blame Goodwin only ignores the bigger picture I've a feeling that we may well go medium/tall in the forward line because that's where we have better numbers in terms of personnel Meanwhile, we may well have had another season where we've recruited well ... we don't know yet but the additions of Tholstrup, Windsor, Fullarton, McAdam, Billings etc could well pay off. Interesting that 4 of the 5 can play forward and who knows with Windsor?

The original title of the thread started off with 'Paul' Roos so there's that And the content serves to highlight how poorly run we were as a club prior to Roos coming on board especially with regards to recruiting (which to my eye, is far and away the most important aspect of a club) Also, how well run we are these days where our recruiting is fantastic We've gone from a massive fail to at least 8.5/10 ... and that doesn't happen by accident However, the content also highlights how easily a club can slip back if we don't continue on the path of building a great list - ongoing I started the thread because someone here mentioned that we didn't add any good players to the team last year but we did ... McVee, JVR, Hunter & Grundy. McVee & JVR could be better than good whilst Hunter must be doing something right if he keeps getting a game in a top 4 team ... he could use the ball better but he did have 538 disposals last season Grundy is gone off course but the point stands and we may well add a decent player to replace him (in a year or 2) So the thread is about recruiting good players and how we go about it (part of that is not having blind faith in one way of recruiting) For instance, free agency can be our friend but doesn't get talked about a lot Adding an A grade player every couple of years or so is very important and that's why I believe we pursued Harley Reid but couldn't quite get the deal done

Over that time we got rid of a lot of experienced players. And I believe that we left ourselves short on experience as a result Too many young blokes and not enough wise-heads is the wrong balance. We could have at least brought in some experience as Roos ended up doing (Lewis, Vince, Cross, Tyson, Melksham etc)

Depends on the quality of the coach and whether the new coach is in for a long rebuild. Or has the capacity to know how to rebuild Making hard calls is part of it too. Some coaches are best suited to coaching an established list. Brought in to win big And it should be remembered that the thinking amongst many of our supporters was that the list wasn't all that bad (easier to just blame Dean Bailey (RIP) & Mark Neeld) And not long after Dean Bailey was dismissed, he remarked that the list had premiership potential We now know that can't have been true but we had any number of first and 2nd round picks on the list that many thought would end up being good players ... again, that didn't happen so Roos comes in and culls the list

Excellent post @DEE fence and I agree with just about everything that you had to say ... especially your thoughts on the great Windies players. They were a must watch and had so much talent and charisma!! As for England, as much as I don't like Bazball, they did play well to win the first test against India after being well behind on the first innings That might be 12 or 13 wins from their last 16 tests using that method so it's got the cricket world sitting up and taking notice Anyway, the first of 3 ODI's against the Windies starts Friday at the MCG (3 x t20's to follow) But is there much interest? What sort of crowd is expected? The game is not on Ch7 so I reckon a lot of people won't even know that the game is being played My preference will be to watch the 2nd test between India & England (starts Friday as well)

The Changes 2013 Off Season Rodan, Sylvia (RIP), Magner, Tynan, Gillies, J MacDonald, Sellar, Davey, Davis, Taggert, Couch, Stark 2014 Off Season Frawley, Byrnes, Clark, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Barry, Tapscott, Clisby, Georgio 2015 Off Season Toumpas, McKenzie, Howe, Jamar, Bail, Fitzpatrick, Cross, Riley Additions 2013 Off Season Salem, Tyson, Cross, Michie, Vince, Kennedy-Harris, Riley, Hunt, Georgio, Harmes, King 2014 Off Season Lamumba, Brayshaw, Stretch, Frost, Newton, Petracca, O-Mac, ANB, vandenBurg, White, Garlett 2015 Off Season Oliver, Melksham, Weideman, Hulett, Bugg, King, J Smith, Kennedy, Wagner Overall So 3 good players along with 2 others who gave good service replaced by 4 top players along with 8 players who gave (or have given) very good service So in my view, if a club can add 2 or 3 good players year on year, the list ends up in contention and then continues to remain in contention But you don't want to have a year or 2 where you miss out completely Adding an A grader every year is a big ask though. But free agency, trading up in the draft or trading for a gun is entirely possible. One star added every 2 years is not a bad ratio Fast forward to 2024 and we continue to build a good list but we have to now deal with injuries halting our progress to more success. So good depth in all the positions is all-important. In the 2023 off-season the recruiting team addressed our forward line issues but it remains to be seen how that will turn out So our starting point now is the confidence that we can win more games than we lose And you go from there And most of us can remember numerous seasons where we didn't know where our next win would come from

Vegas has set the SB as a virtual pick-em 49ers are at -1.5 which is close enough to a point after I was reckoning -3.0 KC but I'm 4.5 points out

Maybe but the point I'm making (again) was that there was zero outcry at the time. Of course, we've now got new information but that info was not visible 4 years ago. Brown & T-Mac were running on top of the ground in 2021 so there were no alarm bells The chronic injuries came later But every part of recruiting is a risk, some high, some low For instance, swapping draft picks for known talent (at the highest level) carries with it a risk that those players can maybe not come up to expectations. Or they can shine In the last 10 years we've swapped draft picks for Lewis, Brown, May, Lever, Hunter, Langdon, Vince, Melksham, Billings, McAdam, Tomlinson, Hibberd etc etc and most have paid off. Not all, but most We've also drafted a stack of youngsters in the last 15 years ... Scully, Petracca, Trengove, Oliver, Morton, Hogan, Brayshaw, Watts, Salem, Kozzie, Gysberts, Weideman, Toumpas* & Jackson were all top 5 or top 12 picks And the results are all over the place So the focus on Brown & T-Mac is a small-picture argument. If we broaden the argument, there are hit and miss stories left, right & centre You're not going to get everything right as we don't live in a perfect world. Nor are we going to get everything wrong But overriding all that is that our Head of recruiting, Jason Taylor, is one of the best in the business and he would have had a big say in the recruiting of Brown. And given his strike rate, we may have thought that Weideman and/or Hogan* would be power forwards for us right now but alas, you can't win them all From an overall perspective, there's been a lot more hits than misses in the last 10 years so we're punching above our weight. The 5 or 6 years prior to that 10 year stretch was abysmal and was the stuff of nightmares *Jason Taylor wasn't 'officially' with us for the 2012 draft but I'd be astonished if a few phone calls weren't made for his opinion on the worth of Hogan & Toumpas And of course, Jason Taylor is with us on the back of the Mark Neeld recommendation. What a sliding doors moment that was

The other aspect is the frustration with a player who gets injured or gets injured a lot to a point where a player becomes injury prone But a contract is a contract and these days (with the input of the players association & the CBA) those contracts are mostly watertight The thinking in the future might be that a veteran player is earmarked for a limited amount of games. Especially if there becomes a need for bigger lists For instance, the MC would not be expecting Brown & T-Mac to play 26 games in the seniors. However, the MC would have high hopes that Petracca & Viney both play 26 games

I reckon Petracca could kick 45+ goals in a season if he played deepish forward for decent periods of time Up until now his forays forward have been fleeting. But in an ideal world we don't need him forward more than 20% of the time. And maybe on a HFF rather than deep forward But we've got forward line issues with regards to quality forwards so we'll have to see how things play out A lot rests with the availability of Petty and how much JVR improves. Along with how much contribution we get from McAdam, Billings, Tholstrup, Fritsch, Chandler, Kozzie, ANB and maybe T-Mac or Brown (Fullarton?) The other issue is the forwards creating separation and the delivery forward along with the speed of the entries and the use of the corridor So it's not just one player or one thing

Green is a no.6 ... of course he bats at no.4 for WA but Doug Walters used to bat at no.4 for NSW To me Green had to bide his time and a specialist opener (Bancroft or Renshaw) to bat at the top of the order Smith stays at no.4 How is an ageing Smith going to go against a top class fast bowling attack led by Bumrah next summer? (India) It looks like the selectors have mapped out the next 12 months but they won't want to lose against the Kiwi's or India

Smith had to back himself to get a single off the 5th or 6th ball ... especially when a bloke like Shamar Joseph is bowling lights out There's a big difference in Hazlewood having to face 1 ball instead of 2 balls. Or none if Smith gets a single off the last ball of the over Smith always seems to be in his own little world. A great player and tactician but that decision to take that single off the 4th ball lacked thought. To me it was a reckless decision As Joseph was running into bowl I thought if he gets any tail from leg to off with the pace that he bowls, Hazlewood is out In terms of whether it helps test cricket in the West Indies I'm not too sure either. The board over there are cash-strapped and it's costing them lots of money to field a test team That's the grim reality

We don't have a leadership issue, we have a forward line talent issue and to a lesser extent, a 2nd ruck issue. And a forward connection issue If we're going to win big we need JVR to improve and we need Petty fit & firing Without 1 of the 2 we're back to a possible T-Mac, an extremely uncertain Brown or a player like Schache who the MC seem to not have much faith in Unless ... we make the decision to go medium tall with McAdam & Petracca playing decent minutes in the forward line. But for that to happen we need Clarrie back and firing in the midfield (so Petracca can go forward) And then there's the other issue apart from the personnel, the mids to forwards connection. That needs a lot of work too but that's a coaching issue, not a leadership issue Our issues are technical and we need to fix that

No one was foretelling that both Brown & T-Mac would end up with chronic ailments that would mean that both would miss heaps of games Certainly not when we signed Brown nor when we extended T-Mac's contract It simply did not happen After the fact, yes. But not beforehand As previously stated, no one can use hindsight to justify a stance. It's like the draft revisionists. The shouda, couda, wouda people But if you or anyone else can point to where there was strong opposition to signing Brown & extending T-Mac's contract, I'd like to see it Besides which, even if you do happen to find such a person the chances are that they've got a 100 things wrong as well. Even a broken clock is right twice a day Certainly, the majority thinking here was happy with both decisions with Brown & T-Mac What it is really all about is that many here love to moan. So give these types any opportunity to have a whinge and they'll be all over it. It's their speciality (whinging)

So the Aussies get past Indonesia 4-0 in a round of 16 match but now it gets really tough Next assignment is a QF vs Saudi Arabia or South Korea. The likes of Iraq, Iran, Qatar & Japan further on This Saturday morning 3rd Feb at 2.30am