Macca

Oscar can become a better player as stated previously. See a few posts above. Whether that happens or not is up to Oscar. And Petty might come on But it's our forward line where the bigger problems lie. Unless we fix that we won't progress far up the ladder I was concerned about our forward line going into the season and was one of the few here that opened up the possibility that we might regress down to 10 wins because of that. But 5 wins? No one picked that. How people can be happy with T-Mac & Weideman as our KPF's really surprises me. I'm not sold on either. Whether we can somehow find an alternative is a big ask too. Maybe later on in the draft but I still reckon we might make a trade for a tall KPF from elsewhere as a 3rd option. There's Joel Smith (maybe) but he can't get on the park.

Best Bet Saturday Flemington Race 2 No.1 Debt Agent $2.35 (Place) Having it's first start in Australia after winning 5 x Group 1 races in Singapore. Running very good times as well. The horse was bred out of NZ and was originally called 'Debt Collector'

Hope your right 55 but I also said that we'd be lucky to win 8 games if we 'Don't' add some real talent Like most, I'm hoping that at the end of trade period, free agency period and the draft that we have added that real talent to the list Not sure we'll snag Elliot but if were to secure him along with Tomlinson, Langdon, a traded in talent or 2 and a couple of decent draftee prospects, we're back in the game. We might even trade out a player who has currency. I haven't heard anything but nothing would surprise me as Goodwin has to get the team winning again to keep the wolves at bay. The biggest issue I see is our forward line. Marking power and goal kicking ability. Our mids need to start hitting the scoreboard too. All that happens and I wouldn't rule out out an 11 win season. 1 or 2 more wins and we're back in the finals. But I see next year as one where we hopefully consolidate ourselves again (after recruiting well in the off-season) And then launch from there. But all things are possible in footy. You just never know.

You'd probably get 100-1 on that exact scoreline! What's the bet it comes off? (100-1 of course)

2 points on offer this week in the tipping comp. Highlight games include the Rams @ Seattle (Friday), Packers @ Dallas and the Browns @ 49ers (MNF) Leaderboard in the Tipping Comp 5 - Dee Zephyr, Go the Biff 4 - JV7, Macca 3 - Dappa Dan 2 - DeeSpencer, Layzie, Clintosaurus, Gorgoroth

We've got about another 20 players in the same category. C & D graders dominate the list But you'd never know it reading these threads. I know the thread is about Frost but we get way too focused on 1 player here. Frost really isn't the problem. The list has gone backwards at a rate of knots and the coaching the same. If we don't get a big influx of real talent we'll be lucky to win 8 games next year. Forget 2018 - that ship has sailed. Hibberd is as slow as a wet week, Jetta is just about done, Salem has regressed, May is injury prone and Lever the same. Hore looks ok. Looks good on paper only

Yes, that too BM but Oscar needs some muscle in the contest. Reality is that he went out of the side and became back-up accordingly. And you do need back--up with key backs. But he'll need to improve his game (and body shape) in the off-season and then force his way into the side and stay there. Right now, that's a big ask. But all things are possible and I wish him well. And here's the thing, back-up players eventually get replaced by those who have a chance of becoming good, established players. And if the team doesn't get back into finals then a greater number of list changes eventuates. I'm sure most know all that but for now, Oscar will remain. Beyond 2020, who knows?

Oscar needs some beast-mode if he wants to become a better player. Put some real muscle on that frame and play with more aggression accordingly. His actual skills when kicking aren't too bad but he gets outbodied far too easily in marking contests. Thus when the ball hits the deck he's often out of position I'd keep him as back-up though as injuries are almost a given in the AFL.

Frost may well have overpriced himself to get out of the joint. Quite freely too without Hawthorn telling him to do so. Or the Hawks might have played that card. Or perhaps the 'too-high' asking price isn't actually true at all.

What about the rest of them? Do you let them off the hook? You shouldn't. They're all as bad as each other. Coach killers but the coach isn't that good either. I'd clear the decks rather than try and single anyone out The players rule the roost and the club lets them do it. Most people I know that are non Demons all make the same observation. And the same types of players who rule the roost are the first to jump ship when it suits them.

That aside I found it stunning that Goodwin quite openly admitted that he didn't coach the fundamentals this season We're looking for the 'Extra's' and the basics get ignored? What the hell are we paying the bloke 800k per year to do? Serious question. And whatever happened to 'Fearless Football'? Now sounding a lot like "We'll be the hardest Team to Play Against'

I said the very same thing here last night ... do what you do, do well (and all that) Team rules should always carry nuance when factoring in players strengths and weaknesses For instance, Robbie Flower's long handball to position probably wouldn't suit Goodwin's style. But it is a weapon rarely seen in today's rigid style of football Goodwin needs to let the players show their individual traits. Hardwick now lets his players play. And it all fits together well.

Yes they do. Same as the players had to take responsibility during the Bailey & Neeld years. I always remember those comments from Brad Green about the players needing to buy-in to the new regime under Neeld. At the time I thought it should have just been an automatic thing to do rather than making an effort to do so. But I'm not sure they did anyway and we look like we've regressed back to kind. We can't go back to just sacking the coach again. A lot of work ahead but it's better to evaluate the list after the trade period and after the draft. And then we reboot and start all over again. We supporters know what is ahead of the team but does the team know?

You make good points AF and I don't disagree with what you've got to say but it's both really. Actual disposal skills and the inability to make position. And an example of our poor disposal skills is our kicking for goal. Yip-City. Ball drop, approach, execution, follow through and even how we line up is error-ridden. And not just when we're lining up for goal. The biomechanics aren't there. But the inability to make position may be of greater concern if it highlights how lazy we are. Coupled with rjay's info that the players aren't carrying out basic instructions. Not good.

And then there are the Lewis comments at the B & F about the attitudes in the pre-season. We got ahead of ourselves. I'm convinced now. And that is a recipe for disaster looking ahead. It was evident from round 1 or even earlier in the practice games. The lack of fight was what stood out to me. But if what you say is true then the disconnect from the players to the Coaching dept/MC is a deep concern. Not so easy to correct either. In the aftermath Goodwin stays but a number of assistants don't. But haven't we seen all this before? History repeats by the looks of it. We saw players openly arguing with each other on the field and we lost 17 games. Says it all really.

There's that too but our disposal skills are suburban level. Deplorable really. But you're not wrong. We're a lazy football team. We don't work hard enough to win games of football I'm wondering what RDB would make of it all if he was in his prime and coaching us. My guess is he'd be seething with anger. Northey too.

We are still a rubbish outfit with him gone. Unless there is an influx of real talent and lots of it. How many highly skilled players do we actually have? Most of them turn the ball over at some stage during the games and a number of them do it multiple times. So it isn't just Frost. The problem will remain once he's gone. There's your context rjay. I reckon he's been badly handled and poorly coached. But again, that appraisal could apply to a number of our other players. And the players don't help their own cause by not helping themselves. Self improvement doesn't really exist at the Demons.

But Collingwood kick well to position where as we don't. Their system works because of their collective skill set. We on the other hand have system breakdowns all over the field because our blokes can't kick to position. That's why we lose.

Chaos in our forward line already exists. Everyone panics and we choke in front of goal Utter chaos I'd call it. Not that it matters now but Frost should have been under instruction with us to run with the ball and then roost it deep into the pockets (Collingwood style) A better percentage play given his skill set. The long ball should still exist for low skilled teams like ourselves anyway. For all the effort we go to in trying to retain possession, we may as well just roost it long for metres gained. But not always of course. Clarkson won't have Frost dinking the ball off with short kicks or handpassing it off whilst running at top pace. He'll know how to use him. Richmond do the same with a few of their players. Except they've got 3 fabulous targets (Lynch, Reiwoldt, Martin) that can mark a long ball in.

Leaderboard in the Tipping Comp 5 - Dee Zephyr, Go the Biff 4 - JV7, Macca 3 - Dappa Dan 2 - DeeSpencer, Layzie, Clintosaurus, Gorgoroth. I'll post up the lines tomorrow night but 2 points are on offer this week (week 5) Seahawks at the Rams on Friday.

Reckon you're right ... Frost being uncontracted gives us very little leverage. None really. Talk of Frost having to go to the draft again is not going to happen either. We might be able to eke out a 3rd rounder but I'm not holding my breath.

See if we were in the business of trading for talent (at the top end) we'd have any number of potential suiters in our sights. Just think about how sport is organised in the USA for instance. Or big time soccer Any number of top-notch sportsmen are traded for or purchased at the the drop of a hat. Contracted or not. The same thing is starting to happen here in Oz but there is nothing to stop our club from aggressively pursuing any talented player. Hell, we landed Moore & Templeton from nowhere back in 1982. The story broke very late when the deals had already been done. Forget the results, that's not my point. With that double move, we started becoming a player again. But we never had the money to land a half a dozen more talented players back then. So yeah, I'd be ultra aggressive in pursuing top end talent. Proven talent. And I'd use draft picks but I'd trade out a player or 2 to get more draft picks to trade for more talent. And to get what you need some tough decisions need to be made. There aren't many of the existing players that I'd rule out either (in terms of trading out)

Cook was the all Australian CHF in his draft year. Plenty here knew about him and when we drafted him many were rapt to get him. Do a search and read the threads on him if you want the proof Lynch wasn't really mentioned by anyone. More so later (which is too late) But the information that comes later is often used as an argument when looking back Quite frankly, I don't ever believe a word of it. The 'I tipped this' people. That's a laugh.

And I am not saying that we ignore the draft altogether. I am simply pointing out the flaws in the draft. Nothing is perfect, least of all the draft. But you'd never know it if you'd only ventured here. And be honest here, did you stuck your neck out at the time and mention that the selection of Gysberts, Toumpas & Cook were mistakes. See it's easy in hindsight to make those claims but I've read all the threads here on all 3 players and not one bad word was said about any of the 3. Not a word Most of the appraisals are said in hindsight. After they started playing for the club. Nearly all of them in fact.

I wouldn't necessarily draft a player or if I did it might be the choice of 6 - 8 players I'd be more looking at trading in a Prestia or Sheil type for the pick with maybe a late 2nd rounder coming back our way as well. But I believe we might have to use 1 first round draft pick on a draftee this year so with some astute trading we could trade pick 3 and work our way back to a pick somewhere between 11 & 16. Time will tell We have to remember that in real terms draft pick numbers are overvalued. For instance, I value Prestia or Sheil as being worth 2 x top 10 picks. Many would disagree but if the strike is 50/50 then 2 top 10 picks is therefore fair. Collingwood coughed up 2 x top 10 picks for Treloar but that's the outlier trade. But as previously stated, the busts are going to happen because of the very nature of drafting. It's not a colossal amount of clubs making a colossal amount of unforced errors. The system is a lottery or a glorified lucky dip. But here's the thing, if you or anyone else puts aside all the bad news, the draft can be seen as entirely accurate. But bad news is bad news. It just cannot be ignored. The entire history of drafting backs up my assertions.