Macca

Not a KPF? Seriously, AF? He's a big boy, he gets to the right spots, puts his body on the line, can take a good grab and has a real presence up forward. And kicks goals from the hot spot (and his kicking for goal has improved) On top of that he doesn't take the soft easy option of leading to the boundary line (key forwards who do that are avoiding contact) That's your very definition of a KPF

Yes, but the football gods can punish like no other. Especially at Collingwood with their close on 30 GF losses Their supporters are continually thrown huge doses of hope only for it to end in tears McRae has done very well so far but if he doesn't win big, they'll go at him. Even this year Have you ever met a reasonably minded Pie supporter, layz?

McRae coaches to his players strengths and it's quality over quantity. And he is a good communicator by the looks of it By contrast we are heavily into quantity. A lot of contested possessions, lots of handballing, lots of forward 50 entries etc etc ... and that served us well last year because we won the flag But we were extremely efficient in the PF & GF so there's that. We also scored 10 goals in the first half on Friday night so we're getting a lot right as well But it's the fade-outs and the giving up of leads that are the concern

I reckon the most logical answer is that 2nd tier players are called 2nd tier players for a reason Some can play a role quite well, others have one standout game in 4 or 5 with the rest of the games being a mixed bag and some only have 1 or 2 decent year's in them and that's it So a good club churns the 2nd tier players over or has an eye to keep bringing in good players either established elsewhere or through the draft (to replace the 2nd tier players) And the best time to revitalise the list is when a team is in the premiership window ... certain 2nd tier players might be traded elsewhere in order to ultimately improve the list If you sit still, you're going backwards. The complication is that a premiership brings togetherness and a bond between and within the players and the supporters So it's a tricky exercise moving players on

That's the key, Clint Most of the 2nd tier players are down on their best. In all cases, their best isn't great so to drop from reasonably good to average, fair or below par is definitely an issue Especially when we count up all the 2nd tier players. An easier way to analyse is to list all our best players ... that adds up to 12-14 players. Probably 15 if we count T-Mac It could be that a lot of our 2nd tier players all had one of their best seasons all in the same year (last year) That can happen As for our best players, we had about 9 of them last year that were in All- Australian contention but this year that number might be 3 - 5 (Oliver, Gawn, Petracca and maybe Brayshaw & Viney) May, Lever, Langdon & Salem are not in contention like they were last year. Injuries are a factor with a few of our best players too

I reckon we are good enough to have forward entries like the Pies have Our midfielders need to practice more of those 15m - 35m passes (lowering the eyes as an add-on) along with having a couple of better players in our forward line (players who can create separation and present) I'd be using Petracca forward and I'd bring in Van Rooyen. Out go ANB & Spargo whilst Brown, Fritsch, Kossie & Gawn remain. Bowey can be the spare small forward ... his skills can be used anywhere We've got too many small forwards who don't do enough and our midfielders need to be coached up to kick the ball into the forward line with greater purpose and efficiency We can always learn from a loss and the Pies have shown us how to work the ball into the forward line to great effect Nothing they did was a fluke. You make your own luck

Erik ten Hag is having a torrid intro as the new manager of Man Utd Down 2 nil at home to Brighton! (half time)

One of the best kicks in the team struggles to get a regular game - Melksham. Weideman is another who kicks the ball well but again, can't get the ball enough We've got a number of players who's kicking to position could be described as adequate only. Ok and alright(ish), but not dynamic At their best, Salem, May & Brown can be very good. Pickett & Fritsch can be good also If we improved our general field kicking then a flow-on effect could be that we'd better in front of goal. Also, we'd be less inclined to turn the ball over once we enter the forward 50 It's been an issue for a long time now. And yet we have days when our kicking for goal is excellent As has been mentioned, the Pies showed us up in terms of how their shots for goal were often from the hot spot area (up to 35 metres out without much of an angle ... or straight in front) If we persist with the left forward pocket as the avenue of attack, it stands to reason that we can end up in difficult positions to score from. Other times, our midfielders get pushed wide with their forward 50 entries Using the corridor more requires precision kicking to position and of late, we've been shying way from using the corridor as frequently. Having great vision can often go hand in hand with regards to hitting targets along with good kicking techniques So it's a confidence issue as well

@MadAsHell I reckon we've got those Englanders covered! They did get within 3 golds a couple of days ago but we've kicked clear again Currently 60-51 but we've got a number of gold medal chances tonight & tomorrow Hockey x 2, Cricket t20 Women's, Netball, Beach Volleyball and maybe 1 or 2 more in the teams And then the individual gold medals up for grabs .. Track & Field, Boxing, Cycling etc

I agree, layz Lose any or both of the last 2 H & A games and we'd almost certainly need to win 4 finals from the Elimination final onwards (that's a big ask) Lose any final and we're out immediately or, if in the case of losing a QF, we'd then need to win 3 finals after that loss (again, a big ask) We need to start winning and keep winning with no slip-ups In an ideal world, we win our last 2 H & A games, win the QF (against whoever), have a fortnight off and then win the PF And then win the GF As you said, we need to win out

Just noticed that, DZ. I'd already formed a view that he might be on the radar for a few clubs. Not a big money contract as that ship has sailed Playing as a KPF is not for everyone. And they aren't in abundance ... Hogan as a no.2 key forward, yes (for a number of teams who have a scarcity of key forwards) He had a great game ... that'll see fit for a new contract (somewhere) And he is out of contract. A restricted free agent I believe. He's free to a new home if teams want to bypass a trade If he'd lost his way, we wouldn't be seeing these types of performances ... 17 disposals, 4 goals 2 behinds, a dozen marks and he led the AF points (whatever that is) Probably the difference between the 2 sides ... GWS won by 27 points

I normally won't single out an individual player like that but the comparison is very real We have a number of players who are barely hanging on as non-negotiable starters ANB, Spargo, Melksham, Hunt, Sparrow, Hibberd & Rivers are all in the same boat. All playing below their best. On top of that players such as Bowey & Harmes can't get a game after previously being starters Brown's knee is a concern and even Petty looked a bit wobbly on Friday night. And a lot of our best players can play better The good news is that we've seen their best but we need to see that best, pronto It's my belief that we have to win our next 5 encounters and if we do that, the flag is ours. Right now, that's a decent ask. Some would say a big ask, Boots

Carlton losing today now means we can't finish any lower than 6th unless Carlton can somehow make up close on 20% on our percentage. That equates to about 240 points (40 goals) What comes with that is at least one guranteed home final Of course, if we finish 4th or better we'll be guaranteed 2 finals and we may well play all our finals at the MCG (if the cards fall our way) So it won't be 7th or 8th

If I'm going to stick my neck out then I have to be prepared to argue my case So if you disagree with what I've said, that's fine. I can argue back. It's called a discussion and we don't have to agree So obviously, when it's a touchy subject like the one surrounding Jesse Hogan, there's going to be some to and fro And I'm well aware of that so the pushback is going to happen What's the big deal? It's not like any of us are involved in the actual decision making Just chewing the fat My motive is for the team to be a better team. As it is for everyone here If we were in a pub talking like this, I guarantee that we'd probably have a good laugh about it as we were stating our cases And I'd like to say I'm out of here as well but I just know I'm going to be quoted again! haha

Hogan wouldn't be the only KPF that we could look at So you are wrong about convincing myself ... the thread is about Hogan, not a general thread about KPF's If we did have a general thread about available KPF's his name would obviously be brought up Anyway, we've got Weideman as our no.1, no.2 or no.3 key forward this season and beyond (depending on injuries) ... unless JVR comes on or we get another KPF from elsewhere (and they are hard to acquire) What's your choice? Another year of Weideman next year or Hogan? By the way, I certainly wouldn't have Hogan back for sentimental reasons ... it's his footy that I'm interested in

I reckon if you (and others) were to look at players as commodities only, you might see things differently We often get too involved emotionally or detach ourselves emotionally. Where as my view is unemotional. More clinical As an example, Demon supporters hated Big Carl but when he came and played for us and then coached us, we loved the bloke Me, I never hated Carl for starters so when he came to us I just looked at what sort of value he would bring It's the same with Hogan, if we believe that he has got his act together off the field (on the field, he's playing quite well) then why put up a stop sign? Do you not believe that Hesse has got his act together? Are you concerned about a relapse? If so, why? So if he has got his act together and can play good football, there is no risk

I disagree We demanded those picks and got them. Do you not remember Peter Bell holding out? I'm not surprised that many will hold a grudge. That's how these things work (the mob mentality, group-think, the establishment view etc etc) Question for you What is your real issue with Jesse? Do you hate the bloke? Do you not have a forgiving nature?

So why on earth has he persevered with Weideman?

His 3rd chance at GWS has been his redemption so that can't be counted as a 3rd fail And if his 4th change of environment is also successful then that's 2 from 4? At the back end. Trending the right way I'd also argue that his numbers in his last year with us (2018) were very good. And we missed his presence in the 2018 Prelim final. He had a more than decent year in 2018 And technically, we'd be giving Jesse his 2nd chance at our club He had his father's death to deal with along with contracting testicular cancer He had a lot on his plate when he had his troubles He's got his act together and that's good enough for me. I'd have him back right now I'd the rules allowed it. Low salary and can play. Cost? At most, a high 2nd round pick. And it wouldn't be too difficult to prise him away from GWS ... they need to trade players We lack key forwards who can play and remain on the field What's not to like? I've thought all year that the difference between winning multiple flags (or not) is a functioning forward line. We could be back to Weideman as our main man in a week or 2 if Brown's knee plays up again Right on the eve of the finals Finally, Jesse wasn't part of a fire sale ... we valued him so highly that we ended up getting pick 6 & pick 22 for him from Freo ... and we turned those picks into May & Sparrow We could get him back for about pick 35 That's a bargain

The Lions have played well and will be tough to beat in a fortnight. They play their home ground well Carlton are ordinary and if we lost to them next week (with or without Cripps) that would be a huge disappointment 12.10 to 3.6 is damning

Even more damning if Ah Chee misses a game through concussion protocols At least 2 weeks, possibly 3 for Cripps

Players are responsible, that's just the way it is now. Matthews, Darcy & Hodge are too old school He'll get cited and could be 2 games out. Maybe 3. Looked blatant to me Ah Chee was subbed off as well Cripps is in trouble Unbiased view as well as I recognise that we play them next week

North are a rubbish team ... I'd say they are doing their best But their best is not good!

It is certainly not a silly thread for any number of reasons For a start, we need up and running KPF's for next year and beyond. 3 genuine types are needed when factoring in injuries So where do we sit right now? I'm not sure we've got 1 genuine starter unless Brown & T-Mac can be injury free in the future. And both will be in their 30's from next season ... injury prone in your 30's? Weideman & Mitch Brown are not the answer whilst Van Rooyen is a project player I understand Weideman is contracted for next season but we might view him as a 4th ruckman/spare KF. He can be the new Mitch Brown So, in an ideal world we bring in an established KF to bolster the ranks Who's available? Does our club give Hogan a 2nd chance? He's stayed out of the news for near on 2 years now and he can still play. I still view him as a proper forward who has presence and gets to the right spots We've all been afforded 2nd chances in our own lives so why not Jesse?

Ah yes, Civ The last hope is the mathematical possibility We've still got that one up our sleeve!