binman

BH that just not true. As Neeld and Watts both pointed out last year Watts did not play as a loose man so it's strange that the idea he did persists (particularly from dees supporters). ' His ability to zone off and intercept the ball is a skill that takes courage, judgement and skill . When he does so he is still accountable for his man and so to do so is inherently risky as it leaves his opponent free. Few players have the nerve or skill to do that which is where the comparisons to Goddard come in. So given he has played his best footy down back and he has an opponent i would argue that in fact he plays his best footy with an opponent.

Classy Nasher and point well made. Demonland would be all the better for responses such as this rather than the usual abrasive put downs that seem to be the norm. In regard to his trajectory i would say however that whilst it hasn't been particularly steep (like Hill for instance) it has been on a pretty a steady upward angle (unlike Rich for instance), which is a little boring but if it continues will put him in a pretty good place in 2-3 years time.

Watts will be star, of that i'm certain. As i have said before by his mid 20's (another 4 years away!) he will be a regular AA selection and considered to be one of the top 10 players in the league by most pundits and footy fans. Mark my words.

Reads like an angst ridden Haiku (or a Smith's song)

Fair call old dee. I'll sometimes receive an email that has been forwarded which has a long chain of other emails in it. Its amazing what can be in the emails buried several below the first one. I wonder what Fans's reaction would be if an incriminating email was found sent from a key FD staffer?

You might be right Old dee, what's that's saying about not going wrong underestimating the intelligence of people? But as i have posted before CW suggests that the IT people went into the club in October. Let's say for arguments sake it was mid October, that's nearly six weeks, perhaps linger. Seriously, given they are presumably just searching fro incriminating emails and documents (as opposed to some super encrypted secret tanking file that only the greatest tech minds could unlock) surely they would have found something by now. I mean how long does it take to do a document search? Even it meant someone actually reading through all the emails from key (or even peripheral) staff that were sent from the club in 2009, surely to goodness it would be completed by now. How many could there feasibly be?

Not really one for the Wilson file but didn't want to bump the other thread about tanking allegation. Lets call it the Steven file: Melbourne Demons sweat on tanking computer raid Nothing new but made me laugh. Apparently the dees are sweating about an 'unprecedented computer raid'. About two paragraphs down Steven notes the investigators are now looking at our files again after completing the review of the files and documents related to their other unprecedented computer raid - ie the Crows/Tippet investigation.

Houston, we have a problem

I'll have a go. 1. Interview, re interview, talk to as many people as possible, make it evident that the 'investigation' is extremely thorough and robust. 2. Make a statement that says that the evidence suggests that the MFC did not maximise their chances of winning more games than they did there is no definitive evidence that they deliberately conspired to lose - ie tanking. The statement will say something along the lines of 'however it is of great concern that a senior FD employee would make comments to a group that suggested, even in jest, that the club did not want to win any more games. Further there were some unusual positional moves and choices to bench players that appear suspect and indeed were questioned by many in the media at the time. This is not a good look but again they do not represent evidence of tanking, nor can evidence of systematic tanking be found' 3. Finalise the exit strategy with something like: 'Over a period of some years questioned have been raised about a number of scenarios and actions by clubs, We do not believe tanking - deliberately fixing games - has occurred, however we are very concerned about the perception that it is occuring. Consequently we are going to engage a panel of experts to review how we can address this perception issue. This might involve changing the rules to make it clearer what we regard to be unacceptable, when potentially suspect action occur (for example who may derive a benefit from finishing last choosing to rest most of it decent players) we will interview the club immediately and seek an explanation and finally looking at the draft system and exploring options such as a lottery to reduce the reward for finishing last.'

I'm curious as to why you think this affair has tainted us? As you note yourself there is every chance the AFL will not have sufficient evidence to sanction us. However they are likely to paint us in a light that suggests that at the least we minimised the chance of winning more than 5 games. I would argue that there is a widespread belief that at least half a dozen clubs did the exactly the same thing and that in fact it was to be expected given the rewards. For heaven sakes it occurred just last season. GWS were never going to win their second game against GC, never. And they made sure of it by resting at least 5 of their best players. Their reward? The number 1 pick in the upcoming draft. Have they been tainted? Tainted, why? Where we have been impacted in terms of how we are viewed is that once again we have failed to keep things in house and remained tight in the way Carlton usually are (a club that has historically also had lots of back room drama). This makes us look silly as a club and yes taints us. But is that the fault of the senior personnel or is that fault of those looking to push their own agenda in a pretty grubby way (to be clear i not suggesting you are in that boat at all, Fan, but clearly there are some people who are doing so)? What is interesting is that thus far there has been no evidence incriminating CS. There may well be some but it hasn't come out. What if the investigation never uncovers any? Will critics of his be satisfied? A question Fan if you'll indulge me. If the AFL concludes we have no case to answer would you still hold the view that there should be changes to senior personnel? alter?

As i have noted before i don't really have an axe to grind with CW and have always considered her to be an ok journalist Unlike Fan however i don't go in for the reporting of football political palaver, which is very much her genre (if that's the right word). I just find it tiresome and would much rather read some decent analysis of tacics, game plans etc (which is woefully short supply across all media). But i think she might have jumped the shark as has the age actually. What grates with her style is not so much her obvious anger towards CS but that how it seems to cross over into a general negativity towards the club as a whole. She seems to take any opportunity to stir up stuff and have a shot. For example this quote from today's article: 'Fairfax Media understands the AFL has summoned Adam Paulo, who was the club's fitness coach that year and departed in less-than-happy circumstances in the past month' What does it add to article that he apparently 'departed in less-than-happy circumstances'. It's just another cheap shot. How does she know this by the way? Surely it is not a fact (unless Paulo has directly told her so). It's a small thing but it just highlights the weird mix of fact, conjecture and opinion that seem to be a feature of her wrtiting. Others have pointed it out, but either write an op ed or a news piece. The other interesting thing i reckon is that as the good Dr notes it suggests that Paulo is yet another disgruntled ex employee who has been interviewed and given evidence. Bailey, For me the fact that so much of this seems to rely on evidence given by ex employees, many of who seem to harbour some angst - starting with McClean of course. Now for my money i'd expect a serious journalist to explore this aspect of the story or at the least make note of it because it will, i imagine, be a big factor in any determination the commission make. Certainly if it goes to court it would be an issue the finskter would robustly interrogate. This sort of analysis would add some much needed balance to her articles on this issue and would add some light and shade to what is a complex issue. I'd also like to see her (or others) provide some commentary on the legalities of all this eg what specific rules are in play, what legal avenues would be open to us, what are the implications of a court challenge etc. This would help me understand the issue better and after all this is the idea of journalism not muck raking for muck raking sakes.

In news just in - an auskick player representing Preston primary school has been been interviewed by Brett Clothier for the fourth time about his observations of the demons body language as they ran out onto the field in the 2009 game against the tigers. Sources advise that Timmy told investigators 'the red and blue players looked sad'

Terrific report dum dee dum. Thanks very much. Clark's injury is a worry and i'm sure they won't take any risks. Any thoughts on how Fitzy is travelling? I reckon he might end up a pretty key player for us.

Sorry Timd i think you have misunderstood me. A couple of things. I have no problems with people questioning the club, go for it i say. When you say shut down, i'm not sure quite what you mean. Shouted down (metaphorically) perhaps but only a moderator can shut down a conversation. The back and forth with Fan went on for pages - he had every opportunity to explain his position and did so - he was not 'shut down'. For what is worth i disagreed with a couple of Fan's points about CW and said as much, but had no problem with his posts or point of view. I have no idea about his agenda, if any - i'll leave that to others to worry about. To be 100% clear i am not in any way telling you or any one for that matter what they can or can't say about the club. Who would i be to say such a thing. Of course you have every right to question all of the decisions made by the administration, goals, objectives strategy and tactics employed by the club. I have not dismissed any ones views, dissenter or otherwise. What i am allergic to (both on DL and elsewhere) is a lack of transparency. And again i am not accusing you or any one else for that matter of not being transparent. But what is patently clear is that there are people within the club who are not being transparent, hence their leaks to CW. What i dislike is that there are forces at work that are clearly attempting to have CS sacked, that is obvious. I'm not talking about DL - who cares about DL. I'm talking about the real world. People with an agenda have obviously leaked information to CW about the evidence they gave to the AFL investigators, in order i assume to make CS position untenable. To be honest i am ambivalent about CS, but i simply don't have enough knowledge to make a judgment. I assume the board do and they have reappointed him. This is the campaigning i refer to, not a bloody fan forum. The campaign is out in the real world. My point is simply that the club has been riddled with damaging politics for at least 20 years and until the club is united across all levels. It is in the interest of the club for people to support the board and if they, can't keep the venom in house. That is the way top clubs work.

Watts will make AA by 2015. Sorry

Questioning the behavior and direction of the of the club is not destabilizing, why would it be. It occurs on DL all the time and for all sorts of reasons - trade decisions, appointment of the coach, ability of the CEO, relationship with Casey etc etc. Nothing wrong with raising issues about stuff. What there is an issue with and what is very destabilizing is leaking information to the press, a campaign of whispers, innuendo, personal attacks on indviduals, petty politics game playing etc etc. MFC has been beset by this sort of rubbish forever and a day and it is the key reason Malthouse says that we have been about everything but football. The current campaign is just one more chapter in a sorry tale of disunity and factional warfare. CW is, i would suggest happy to play a role in it. Why not, it appears to align with her agenda. The current board has reappointed CS and moved CC to a non FD position. Where is the value in tearing away at the club in the hope that both will be exited from the club - even if you passionately believe they should be. There is a board to govern the club, they should be left to do so. There are also elections and and the processes such as the AGM which can be used to transparently raise issues. Enough of the tawdry cloak and dagger.

Fan i happen to agree with many of your points. As i've said before she was doing her job, it was a nice juicy story and any journo would have loved to run with it. I had no real issue with her articles (other than the fact they were pretty poorly written and changed in detail from day to day eg the Vault changing from a code word to the name of a tin shed!) - that is 'till the last one. Terrible article and bordering on defamatory. It is no exaggeration to say that if posted on DL by a poster they would have been howled down and almost been suspended (its attacks were personal and quite extreme). But i can't agree with the with your point about us making it easy to identify and prove. At least not i if understand that what you are saying is that the incompetence of senior staffers were the reason for this (eg CC raising it in a large meeting and making the comments he allegedly made). Where i differ is that as one of the very few reasonable articles about this matter (Jake Niall i think but could be wrong) noted the reason this came out was the because of how poisonous and divided our culture has been at the board and FD levels over many, many years. Indeed CW herself has noted this culture. Other, more united, clubs are less likely to leak. My concern about CW is she is both playing on this culture and fueling it with a clear agenda of attacking CS and CC. I have concerns other people, some of whom post on DL are trying to do the same - which of course plays straight into CW's hands. I agree with Jnr mac (at least i think it was him) that said we seem to be more united now than we have been in a long time. I hope all dees fans, whatever their allegiances can drop the agendas and focus on the unification of the club. If they can't then i hope they use the election process not the press to prosecute their case.

I dispute the idea that Watts lacks courage in the air, or courage full stop. He was one of the best intercept marks in the league last year and that sort of mark requires two types of courage. One, it can mean dropping into a hole or going back with the flight (which he didn't shy away from) and risks getting collected. Two, as he and the club pointed out several times he was rarely used as a spare man, he almost always had a man to cover. leaving your man to attempt an intercept mark takes courage because it is very risky and can make a player look foolish when their opponent gets an easy kick in the forward line because they have been left free. Edit: McQueen, i wasn't suggesting you claim Watts lack courage, i agree with your post i quoted

Not sure about dominant but i could definitely see him take a big step up, particularly if he can improve his running and aerobic capacity as he has been a bit of a one paced plodder. A bigger tank could mean him playing through the mid field - Jones, Viney, WInes and Tappy in the middle might be a litlle slow perhaps but it would be pretty ferocious. It should be remembered that if he does have a thorough complete pre season it would just about be his first. he has had terrible luck with injuries impacting on his pre seasons, and IIRC they have been related to his hip and back which would have also really impacted on his capacity to get miles in the legs and do running work

I totally agree Steve. I think there is an enormous upside to having two close mates who sound like they have been pushing the other for years. The fact they are both mids is also a plus as they will be playing side by side. Warrior types that Neeld loves and these two boys will fly the flag for each other should it become necessary. I am positive that if they can get him they will.

Osilik i largely ignore your posts as i can't be bothered with the [censored] for tat stuff you seem to relish. But comments like the one above are bordering on trolling - winding people up for the sake of it. The comments in this thread about Watts in this thread were of a positive nature dealing with his current build and potential playing positions. You are the one who introduced the idea of his worth as a number 1 selection - a topic that has been done to death, has its own thread (bump it if you want to reignite it) and has nothing at all to do with what was being discussed. Again troll like behvaiour Yes i hear you - if i don't like it don't read it yada yada. But TBO it is tiresome, particularly when it occurs in one of the rare positive threads on Demonland. I mean really who need another negative out of context comment?

Funny you mention him playing on the wing as i was going to say the same before settling on a run in the midfield. this might sound a bit silly but i could almost see him as hb/winger in the mold of Robbie Flower. It would be funny if whilst looking for a star KPF we ended up getting a new Robbie Flower.

I think they'll keep him relatively lean as his role will, for the forseeable future, be the sweeping QB defender with perhaps even a bit of time on the ball. Makes sense i reckon as one his key strengths is his athleticism and running, might as well take full advantage of it.

Abso - bloody - lutely Stuie, spot on. No way MacDonald was going to get delisted, no way. Also no way Sellar was going to go. Both players are physically strong at it types, play a role and do what they're told. Neeld soldiers and as you note exactly the sort of player Neeld loves. Its not just that though - both are super trainers and hard workers and it is all about building a culture of elite training and hard work as he has been banging on about since he joined the club. All the new recruits are cut from the same cloth. The Neeld army is being formed. Dunn? I also agree with you comment in the OP that he saved himself in the second half of the season. By all accounts he too now is working super hard and now fits the Neeld soldier mold. Like Blease he has bought in and i reckon Neeld would love players who are able to turn things around and buy in when perhaps they previously were not fully committed. I get the feeling Sylvia and even Davey are in the same boat - at least i hope.

I'm loving how demonland have a new hero (with nary a word against him!). I'm also loving how all of a sudden we are taking CW's word for something, ie that we have engaged him. Who's her source i ask ya (seriously though i reckon the club has told her bossed who we have engaged) The Finkmeister - just the mention of his name puts fear in the heart of AFL administrators and news editors! I want to see the dees run through a Finkmeister banner round 1 next year.