Slartibartfast

You're biased.

How do you know it's Goodwin's influence?

You're behind the time Forest. Some have for weeks only to be told how good he is.

Well if you need any more convincing that he's had a terrible year here is the DL voting after 18 rounds. A nice spread of votes this week sees Bernie Vince consolidate his lead. 130. Bernie Vince 114. Nathan Jones 103. Tom McDonald 96. Jesse Hogan 78. Max Gawn Jack Viney 63. Daniel Cross 53. Angus Brayshaw 52. Jeffrey Garlett 44. Colin Garland Aaron vandenBerg 30. Christian Salem 28. Cam Pedersen 25. Jack Watts 22. Neville Jetta 21. Jack Grimes 19. Jimmy Toumpas 17. Lynden Dunn 13. Jeremy Howe 6. Dom Tyson 4. Mark Jamar Heritier Lubumba Viv Michie Ben Newton 3. Chris Dawes 2. Jake Spencer 1. Alex Neal-Bullen Given that he's played all but one game he really should have done much better. He's miles behind Jack Grimes who has played much less football and is so unfairly treated on this site. The Collingwood supporters I know are thrilled with the swap with Varcoe. Let's face it, Lumumba has offer little if anything to the side and frankly I'm surprised he's kept his spot. Come on Heritier, lift!

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

I've been trying to imagine what sort of player Christian may turn out to be. I saw he train last year a few times and the best two comparisons I can come up with are Colin Sylvia and Jack Darling. For those that saw him at junior level how would you characterize him and what role do you see him playing immediately and in the longer term?

He's actually missed one but that is neither here nor there. He does bring a willingness to take the game on but to what effect? He had a golden opportunity to pass to Hogan in the third but kicked to Garlett who was two against one. He was under no pressure and he regularly makes poor decisions. He failed to go when Daniher kicked the last goal against us. He was largely on Sidebottom in the first when he racked up 14. At the risk of the venom of Demonland coming down upon me I'd have Grimes ahead of Lumumba every day. But I accept that's moot and I'd have Salem very comfortably ahead of both. Jetta, Dunn, Garland, McDonald, Salem, Howe and Cross are all better down back than Lumumba with Grimes shading him IMO. And Lumumba just doesn't get involved enough from a wing to justify his position. I think Lumumba is an athlete and not a footballer. I haven't checked but how many DL or Coaches Award votes has he got this year? I don't reckon it would be many. For a bloke that finished 4th in Collingwood's b&f last year he's been particularly disappointing. I'm not criticizing the person, he may add a lot around the club and he may set a terrific example to the younger players. But on field he's added very little.

I reckon you can safely unbold this bloke. Very very disappointing so far. I hope he's doing lots off the field because he's doing little if anything on it. The only reason he's flying under DL radar is because he never gets it. With a full list he would be very lucky to be best 22. For a high profile mature age recruit he is poor. And to make it worse he doesn't go when it's his turn.

I doubt Watts will be great and I agree with the Riewoldt type. But I don't think you can underestimate how bad we were and how badly managed he was. The Neeld years but him back significantly IMO at a time where he would normally have blossomed. Having said that it's taken longer than I thought for Watts to improve under Roos. I gave up.

I think you've interpreted "to rate him incredibly highly" too strictly. I don't think many if anybody would rate his output highly to date, in that respect he has been exceptionally disappointing when measured against his draft position. But many can see his qualities and rate them highly. He has elite qualities. Ball handling, speed, vision, decision making and execution. These attributes have been negated because of his unwillingness to go and get the ball and understand the defensive side of football and without those qualities you are of little if any value. I held on to "Watts hope" until about the middle of May where I finally declared my hope/optimism broken. I should have done this earlier because from about mid June we've seen a Watts who is much more aggressive and positive. We can all pontificate on why it is what it is and I think it is a combination of maturity/development/toxic environment/ management of expectation/learning the game/finally understanding. But the reality is Watts is now a dangerous player. With improvement he could become a significant player and with his elite attributes and in a good team may approach the player we were expecting. The other intangible with Watts is how loyal he's been to the club, how much he loves playing with his team mates and how much the other players enjoy having him around. Without performance that is meaningless but it's valuable if he commands a spot in the team based on output. How good do you think he'll be? That's the question. It's easy to critique his journey to date but so much more difficult to predict the destination. He may ultimately be a bust but he could also be elite. Not many have that as a possibility.

Love the name Jack.

If you don't like Grimes you must pull your hair out with Lumumba. Won't put his body in, poor decision maker but gets away with it because he doesn't get the ball. At least Grimes has a go, puts his body on the line and is clean with his hands and overhead. I'm not convinced that Grimes is best 22 but I'll have him ahead of Lumumba every time. I've just watched the replay and for much of the first quarter Lumumba was on Sidebottom who racked up a lazy 14 in the first quarter. Cross then went on to him and he was ineffectual. Lumumba also ignored Hogan who was clear on the lead and kicked to Garlett who was covered by two in the goal square.

OK, so we agree Lumumba isn't much of a player. I didn't look at him as critically at Collingwood as I do at Melbourne but put weight in his 4th in the B&F because I really rate Buckley and so just assume he played better for them last year. But that is moot. I also agree Lumumba for Clark is a win, but it's a useless win IMO because Lumumba offers so little. I wonder what else was on offer. I reckon we really overrated Lumumba and I'll be interested to see where he finishes in the B&F this year. I just didn't realize how timid he is. Edit: In fact I wonder if Lumumba for Clark is a win. If Clark was still on MFC list (and injured) I'd have more hope of some meaningful contribution in the future from Clark than Lumumba.

Pennant I said "he was a poor pick up for the price". His price was Clark and his price is also what we are paying him. In a sense he can be compared to Varcoe who IMO has given Collingwood much more than Lumumba has given us. Geelong punted Clark's ability to play and if that punt had come off Clark would have offered Geelong more than Lumumba has offered us. Clark is not yet done but I acknowledge that he is likely to be a bust. Lumumba would not have come cheaply. He finished 4th in Collingwoods B&F last year behind Pendlebury, Sidebottom and Beams. His contracted amount may not matter this year but in future years when we need salary cap room to lure other players we will have spent some of it on Lumumba. Not a good result. So I'd still maintain that he is a poor pick up for the price. In terms of performance he'd be lucky to find a spot in my best starting 22, but I acknowledge many would have him in. Dunn, Garland, Salem, Jetta, McDonald, Cross, Grimes and Howe have greater or equal claim to a spot in the back 6 for mine. I've not seen him impose himself on games when we are faltering, I've not seen the courageous act to inspire, I've not seen the piece of inspirational play to instil confidence beyond his goal against the Suns in the first match. His possession rate has fallen by 20% since last year while his tackles have gone up. If this is what he produced at Collingwood last year I don't think he'd have finished 4th in their B&F. If the reason for his decline is caused by having less capable players around him then the footy department got his recruitment wrong. We needed someone who could lift those around him not someone who relied on those around him. If you truly believe he's playing now as he did at Collingwood I reckon you'd have been pretty disappointed with the pick up. Whilst his trade value was Clark it begs the question as to what else Geelong might have been willing to give up rather than the round robin for Lumumba or what other deals were possible. I don't know. Perhaps this was the best we could do but in my opinion he has been bitterly disappointing.

Lumumba finished 4th in Collingwoods best and fairest last year if my memory serves me correctly. He would be lucky to be in the MFC top 10. He may have been in our best 3 once. If he wasn't playing he'd be one of the last players I'd be worried about. Hell, if people pick on Grimes what do they think about this bloke. It's hard to remember too many bits of genuinely constructive play from him this season. For a senior player he's been exceptionally disappointing. IMO he's erratic with his decision making and disposal, good at one on one ground ball contests and timid in the extreme in the air. His desperation is poor. His shocking effort to spoil Daniher in the last seconds of the Essendon game are representative of the way he plays and showed a lack of leadership. By spoiling Daniher he may have given away a free but Daniher would have been sore which wouldn't have helped him kick it 50 metres. If Viney had been where Lumumba was it would have been a different scenario. Lumumba in my opinion was much more effective at Collingwood. He may be having trouble adapting to the different game plan, the game plan mightn't suit him, he may be playing injured, he may be struggling with less capable players around him but he certainly isn't playing like he was at Collingwood. He's been a poor pick up for the price.

I started to write something like this and couldn't get it right. You have. Thanks.

I'm in no position to judge Graz, but Eade does. Recently I've read Eade's comments after Saturday's game, seen Buckley and Roos on TV last night and listened to one of our footy department people talk about this issue at a function last week. The things that seem to come out of this is that coaches coach first and foremost to stop the opposition scoring goals. They slow the game down at every opportunity to aide this and they train their players to hold the ball in when tackled and force stoppages when not in control of the footy so they can "reset". As a spectator the coaches objectives are the antithesis of what I want to see. As a supporter I want to win which is obviously the same objective as the coach. On 360 last night Roos asked the question "what do we want our game to look like?". I know blokes who think the 2005 GF was the best game ever - hard, tough, great contest. I thought the only thing that saved it was the atmosphere of the GF itself and the closeness of the scores. It was a boring game. Give me the showdown in Adelaide last week anytime. I get the feeling that as the AFL try to speed the game up the coaches will come up with ways to slow it down. Zones are an obvious way of trying to do beat the coaches but I don't think people want them. I don't. Clarkeson says we need to apply the rules more actively but Buckley says the rules are so complicated as to be almost unenforceable. There are better minds than mine around to try and sort it out but from where I sit being a spectator is approaching an all time low and of course being an MFC supporter has been the worst gig in the competition for decades.

Oh, and while I'm at it Roos said "the worse it got the more interested I got". Why? Did the money go up? You just got to wonder if we got sucked into the messiah complex again. Having said that, I supported and was happy with the appointment. That should worry everyone!

Sorry, but not all of us. But nobody wanted to listen. I still think Roos has been a positive. But it worries me that he might be "yesterdays" man, it worries me he anointed Goodwin (does Goodwin have the same mindset and limitations of Roos?), it worries me that Goodwin was first in line for the "good stuff from Danksy". It worries me that neither Jackson or Roos were in it for the long term when appointed. I also said at the beginning of this year that Roos had never proved himself to be able to coach offense. He still hasn't and that worries me. But I might be needlessly worried.

Yep. Agreed. I didn't see it that way. It's why they are coaches and I'm not. TBH I don't notice him much in the seniors either. Seems to be one of those players that I just miss.

And from the coach in his player assessment on Toumpas: Courage isn't a problem for this kid. Also, he didn't play midfield on the weekend but high half forward, not a spot that I'd have thought suited him. He clearly lacks composure under pressure. And he's trying really hard. Hope he makes it.

I sat in the old John Elliott stand for the first half (now the Heroes?) and then in the stand on the other side of the ground next to the coaches box for the second half. Better view and warmer there, don't know why I went to the other one to start with. I think the standard of "entertainment" has dropped in the VFL because these teams now play "AFL" footy. They have the ability to run and tackle and crowd around the ball and keep it in but they don't have the ability to move it quickly into the open. Roos would probably tell you they are playing their role so when they do play AFL they are ready. Whatever the situation it's not a good spectacle unfortunately. I remember fondly the Sandy days and also the Bailey days where we were a turnover team who played open, fast and attacking footy. It was so good to watch but in todays contested ball era probably not effective. Sad. Anyway, Casey are doing well which is good for all.

Were you there WJ. How did the standard compare to other Casey games this year?

If I was picking a team to win next week then Toumpas would be ahead of Brayshaw. Brayshaw has been poor the last few weeks. Got that head knock against WC and has had 24 possessions in two games since against weak opposition. He's tired. He's clearly an exceptional prospect, more so than Toump, but in the short term I think some of the younger kids need a rest.