Tatu

agree with all that. But it is up to Jack as to how much he wants to play...

its tough to let go... I've wanted him to succeed now for so long... Suppose i fell for the dreams sold to me by the board... He really does need some time in Casey to get form... If Toumpas and Trengove can go back, then he can... As far as his lack of intensity and desire... i really think jujitsu, boxing, ground grappling or some kind of martial arts will help... But i suppose its really up to him really...

I have been a huge supporter of Watts... The club paraded him around like he was the next Wayne Carey, before he'd even played a game... The pressure placed on his shoulders was a absolute joke... The work of a board hell bent on recreating the Norm Smith era... Its embarrassing what the MFC have done to these young men...

In three years they stripped the playing group of all on field leaders and expected Watts, Trengove and Scully to lead this club to a premiership...lol... Jeez... Surely they knew it was a flawed plan?

After watching Watts this weekend I can now see why supporters are upset... His game was terrible... He may never be great or the next Wayne Carey... But jeez, he needs to work hard than he did... We all saw his game... I can't think of excuses for him anymore... Maybe some time at Casey will do him some good... Take some pressure of him and allow him to play back into some kind of form... He needs to learn how to chase, tackle and general pressure acts... The club should employ a jujitsu master to teach him how to use his body... Because if this continues, he will go the way of Morton... Which will be a shame... He has talent and we need to find away to get it out of him...

We are the most inept team i have seen... Truly embarrassing to watch...

Anyone who can read lips will know that Roosy messed up the words to the song. Don't worry pal, you'll get 'em right before long.

was a conveniently timed close up...lol...

I DO want to see a "line in the sand" match as well but to me line in the sand doesn't mean all in brawls and king hits behind play. Go hard for the ball, make the opposition know you are there and they will get crunched everytime they want to take the footy. Run through players legally at every opportunity and make your tackles stick and hurt by driving them into the ground. Use your bodies, back up your teammates and never take a backwards step - if it comes to a scuffle or blows because the other team gets upset then get in there and let them know about it but otherwise just play hard tough footy. That's what I want to see.

the top teams do this every match... Not on emotion or some 'line in the sand' match.... they just do it, because they are professional footballers... Farout! are our players professionals or not! Its [censored]! what we are putting up with week in week out!! 'Line in the sand' pfft what a load of [censored]!!

Waite is pretty much their Dawes. He just straightens them up structurally. It's a massive call to drop him. Very fishy. And Gartlett - dropping your best small forward for a very likely rainy game - it doesn't make much sense to me. Tanking this early also doesn't make much sense, but who knows?

jeez... I hope their tanking, because I need to see a win....

Probably wants a trade to Freo

lol... who wouldn't.... Even if this was true, at least we'd get something back...

Wonder what the relocation package will look like?

WTF is wrong with this guy?

Had a really good year last year, and has taken about 20 steps backwards this year.

Had so many chances to give us something and cement his spot.

His form isnt even average this year, its deplorable.

i reckon Fitzpatrick isn't a forward...we have to make do, with him there for now... But as soon as we can, we should change his position... He has the size of a ruckman and the dash of a mid, he could be a good number 1 ruck... maybe he could tag other teams rucks? Or play off half back creating run, breaking lines and dropping back in the hole... Or just ruck... Anyone here know what his hit out work is like?

Lol... Glad to see your still around Enyaw....

Here's my alternative team positions...

B. Tapscott , Fitzpatrick, Grimes

HB. Tyson, Frawley, Toumpas

C. Watts, Vince, Garland

HF. Trengove, McDonald, Terlich

F. Howe, Jamar, Dunn

R. Spencer, Jones, Cross

INT. Kent, JKH, Evans

Sub. Blease

First sorry but I find it impossible to believe that a fan site will have that effect on a player.

Players in my view are rubbished because of their results, we don't cause the results.

some of the crap written about players here, is bordering on bullying... Every year demonlanders, without fail will rubbish individual players... The Morton bullying was relentless and the Watts threads have pushed the limits... I mean, what kind of a culture blames Jack Watts beard for the team losing? Jeez...

We need to get behind the players we have, or risk losing our club... If we don't turn up to games, the club doesn't make money... Simple...

Im sure the AFL have us half way too Hobart anyway... Where their are people jumping out of their skin to have there own team...

Sassy, don't bother. These morons are completely missing your point. The numbers also point to impact, something WYL and PF and their sycophantic mates will never see. You are wasting your obvious intelligence trying to debate with them. The Toump is being accused of being slow, emotional etc etc! He's a young lad trying to make his way in this Cut Throat industry where not only opposition supporters bag you, but here at the mighty MFC, your own eat you and spit you out. WOW!!!! If I ever stopped supporting this Club, it won't be because of our players and their effort, it will be because of the morons sitting in the outer spewing their invective through their keyboards. I can accept that we have some players maybe lacking in confidence, but who can blame the poor sods if they hear over the fence the vile carp spewed here by faceless cowards hiding behind their anonymity and their Mamas skirt (that would be you PF and WYL). I hope your proud of your carry on and behaviour you faceless, toothless cowards. God help the MFC, the culture is blamed for all our ills. This so called poor culture starts from the Fans sitting on the other side of the (Picket) Fence. The Clubs staff come and go, but by God, the Fans are still there.

i can't say i have read this whole thread, but I've witnessed what your talking about here before and i agree 100%... Especially with your last point...

Problem was our "experienced "players were part of the problem!

some were... Not all though...

Our cull went to deep, too early... did we really need to draft 8+ young players a year? We could have turned over the list at a slower rate.... But instead we just smashed the guts out of our team... In the hope of finding stars...lol...

Now players like Trengove, Toumpas, Watts etc.... Are expected to be instant superstars, who will lead us out of the darkness... How can we expect junior players, to come into AFL and dominant and lead straight away? And when they dont we claim them as duds and a waste of space...pfft... If Toumpas was at Hawthorne, he wouldn't get a game... Not because he is bad or a dud, because he isn't ready...

Rivers left on his own terms tatu.

had we not cut into our experience so deep, id say he would have stayed... The drafting strategy was a flawed plan... West coast have rebuilt their list and still hung on to experience.... Port still have 2004 premiership players on their list... St kilda and the western bulldogs are rebuilding now, they both have hung on to their experienced players...

The fact that we haven't improve is a direct result from the list culling of senior players...

The way i see it is... The problem isnt who we drafted... It was the whole drafting strategy....

We delisted all of our experience and drafted kids...then we expected them to develop with nobody showing them the way?

Players like James McDonald, Russell Robertson, Cameron Bruce, Brad Green, Aaron Davey, Jarod Rivers and Jeff White were all removed, with the idea to replace them with high draft picks... These players are the guys we needed to teach and lead our youth through... Instead they were pushed out by an administration, that was fantasising about recreating Norm Smiths early 50's rebuild...

Its embarrassing really... We all fell for the stories and the dreams, we all wanted draft picks via tanking and we all back our club when they pushed our experience out the door... Now we're all paying for it...

I know you will take up the challenge of arguing for the sake of arguing but here goes.

I don't doubt that something needed to be said to the players. However, I DO hope Roos didn't go in there all guns blazing, with his mouth running off before his brain.

It seems also a little strange and a little concerning that Roosy has broken the one rule he has set since he started coaching 'Don't blast players after the final siren.'

lol... You do realise your talking about Paul Roos yeah?

He isn't considered one of the best coaches in the AFL, because he yells and screams at players.... Im very confident that even if he did give them a bake, It would have been a structured powerful home truth that the players needed to hear... When someone yells at people all the time, it becomes normal and ineffective... When a guy who is normally calm and considered raises their voice in disapproval, the message is usually load and clear...

At least Paul Roos now truly knows what he is dealing with... Im more confident that he can identify major issues, now that this capitulation has happen while He was in charge.... Im not sure if he can fix our problems? Who knows? It might be to late?

Paul Roos is one of the best, coaches in Australia.... I think we are good hands... And I'm sure he wont stop until the problems are identify and removed...

Because Hogan is AFL-ready, and would get a game in almost any side in the AFL. Take Freo for instance. Hogan would walk into their lineup as full-forward alongside Pavlich. Would Toumpas get a game ahead of the likes of Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow, Hill, De Boer, Danyle Pearce, Suban, Mzungu etc? No. Would Terlich get a game ahead of Ibbotson, Silvagni, Johnson, Clancee Pearce, Neale, Spurr etc? No.

I love Jack Grimes, but would his disposal errors be acceptable at Fremantle? Absolutely not

lol... How long before you turn on him too?

This may paint a depressing picture, but probably worth analysing. Nothing personal against any of the players mentioned, just an honest fans opinion.

*By AFL standard, I refer to their capacity to get a game in another side.

1. Jesse Hogan. Have seen enough to comfortably state he'll be a very good player. Ready-made - Yes.

2. Nathan Jones. Superstar - Yes.

3. Christian Salem. Looks like he could be a good player, but you never know until he plays AFL football - Question mark

4. Jack Watts. Lacks competitive instinct, but is still not a bad player - Yes.

5. Jimmy Toumpas. Has shown flashes, and I'm pretty sure he'll become a solid player, but at this stage, he is unproven. - Question mark

6. Chris Dawes. When fit - Yes

7. Jack Viney. Young, but can confidently say he is AFL standard. Yes

8. James Frawley. His disposal sure isn't AFL standard, but he'll still be quite a loss if he leaves. Yes

9. Jack Trengove. Sad to say that I'm not sure anymore. Time is on his side to prove doubters wrong, but unfortunately he's been declining for the better part of three years. - Question mark

10. Shannon Byrnes. The fact that he is leading our goal kicking sums up our situation perfectly. Lacks height, speed, skill, composure. - No

11. Mitch Clark. When fit, obviously, but who knows if we'll ever see that again. - Yes

12. Dom Tyson. Looks worth more than pick two just by himself. - Yes

13. Jordie McKenzie. Not a bad run-with player, but provides little else. Courageous? Yes. AFL standard? - No

14. Lynden Dunn. Has come along in leaps and bounds under Roos. - Yes

15. Mitch Clisby. Looked OK last year, but the fact he can't crack a game in our current state is a worry. Status as a second-year player gives him leniency. Question mark

16. Dean Kent. OK first year - Question mark.

17. Sam Blease. Has pace and little else. Doesn't apply nearly enough defensive pressure. - No

18. Daniel Cross. Workhorse. - Yes

19. James Strauss. Would love to say yes, but unfortunately injury has held him back, and when he's actually on the park, he hasn't shown much. - No

20. Colin Garland. God we miss him. - Yes

21. Cameron Pederson. - No. Moving on

22. Viv Michie. Hasn't had a great start to his MFC career, but I have faith he'll come along and be a serviceable player. Still - Question mark

23. Bernie Vince. Very good player. - Yes

24. Jay Kennedy-Harris. Has a chance to be handy. Unproven, obviously. Would like to see more. - Question mark

25. Tom McDonald. Good player who would look much better in a side that doesn't get slaughtered each week. - Yes

26. Daniel Nicholson. Lacks skill and football IQ. - No

27. Aiden Riley. From all accounts, seems he might be a good pickup, obviously haven't seen much though. - Question mark

29. Jayden Hunt. Left-field draft choice, Roos obviously sees something though. - Question mark

31. Jack Grimes.Tries, tries, and then tries some more. Unfortunate that his skills let him down so often though. Still, I'd say yes at this stage. Just

32. Michael Evans. Would like to see more. - Question mark

33. Dom Barry. As above. - Question mark

35. Luke Tapscott. Muscle and not much else. - No

37. Max Gawn. Has potential. - Question mark

38. Jeremy Howe. Gee a very tentative yes. Give him the benefit of the doubt as he's copping more attention than he should be. Lack of effort and desire very evident in the first two games. - Yes. Just

40. Mark Jamar. Not anymore - No.

42. Jake Spencer. Tries his heart out, but lacks so much co-ordination that it's not even funny. - No

44. Rohan Bail. Struggles immensely under any sort of pressure. - No

45. Matt Jones. Feel bad considering that he provided us with a lot of help in his first year. But would he get a game for most other AFL sides? - No

46. Dean Terlich.Tries very hard, but is oh so limited by his disposal. Line ball. - Question Mark

48. Jack Fitzpatrick. After showing a bit last year, looks like he's going nowhere fast. - No

Rookies:

39. Neville Jetta - No.

41. Alex Georgiou - Question mark

43. James Harmes - Question mark

47. Max King - Question mark

So of the 42 players on our list, in my opinion 14 are comfortably AFL standard. Of these, questions remain as to long-term future with the club (Dunn and Frawley, Cross due to age), injuries (Dawes and Clark) and general desire (Watts and Howe).

My three conclusions:

1. I think we have been expecting too much of Roos and co. They really don't have a lot to work with, unfortunately

2. It's going to take quite some time to turn this list over

3. I have far too much time on my hands on a Sunday night.

how can you say yes for Hogan, who hasn't played a game and question mark for Terlich, Toumpas... Only just for Grimes? Jeez... No wonder nobody wants to play here...pfft

We won the contested and uncontested possessions, the tackle count, 1%'s and took more marks inside 50. Our efficiency was 72% to 74%.

Got to ask the question, am I reading the stats correctly? Unbelievable we can get towelled up by that much with those numbers.

we got killed by the turn overs early on... To many easy goals... West coast hardly got out of second gear.... They jump a head early and cruised...

Shannon Byrnes you star! Two goals...

lol... Our leading goal kicker this year...

It has got nothing to do with development, you cannot develop spuds.

When Roos sees his contract out, hopefully this Quality Vs Development debate will be put to rest.

lol... Im sure most of our players are actually not as bad as they look.... When you butcher the list by chopping off all the experience, and replace them with kids... Who are the kids going to learn from? How can we expect anyone to develop under those conditions? The passed couple of administrations have killed this once great club... The damage done in the original(2007-8-9) rebuild is still affecting us... Back then, we didn't have the best senior players.. But they were senior players, they knew the game and we chopped them all? Farout

We need GWS concessions this year to ever be a chance to get off the bottom.

a mini draft type consession would help... But we need Roos to extend his contract... Two preseasons isn't enough...

Hopefully they can drag something out of the second half... West Coast haven't even got out of second gear...Smh...

Frawley will not be here next year.

Start planning accordingly.

i hope your wrong... But I'm not confidant....

He will be a big loss for us, but really a player like him is kind of wasted in a team like ours.... If he does leave, i understand the reasons and id wish him luck...