Grand New Flag

Aaaah Geez. I read this wrong.

In the title (and the field under the title) it says "how many wins for 2009?"

Then in the actual poll it asks how many in 2010.

I would have put 3 for the first question and 7 for the next one.

Sorry Dappa, the poll was meant to be for both 2009 and 2010 plus next finals, however, for what ever reason the forum would only take two polls.

I am not saying our young team does not have potential. It does. I am just saying that we have very few senior players to hold up our team, its boys v men and young tallent takes time to develop.

A move up the ladder starting in 2010 may still be too early. We may end up with another year of pain and another priority pick. If this happens we have no excuses in years ahead, also Bailey could be in serious trouble. 3 seasons with less that 12 wins combined is a tough spot to be able to negotiate a contract extention.

Moderator:

I had some difficulty getting 2009, 2010 and next finals series questions in the same topic. It simply did not let me. Could you please merge this with the others and perhaps fix.

Thanks

I am of the feeling we will win 2 more games this season but struggle to win 5 again next season. Finals are not likely before 2013 and we may need more priority picks if we are to push for a top 4 finish anytime soon.

Priority Picks still exist after 2009.

I am of the feeling we will win 2 more games this season but struggle to win 5 again next season. Finals are not likely before 2013 and we may need more priority picks if we are to push for a top 4 finish anytime soon.

Priority Picks still exist after 2009.

Were we watching different games on Friday night?

I thought he was impressive, and more importantly he is the sort of player that will become much better in a good team.

He still needs to do some work on his disposal, but to compare him to Godfrey is plain and simple rude and wrong. He is much faster and has far better skills than Dudfrey. The only thing he does llike Dudfrey is the 1%ers which is a good thing.

Watts improved on his first week and thus should not be dropped.

At some point he will be dropped back to Casey so he can work on aspects of his game, however, this should occur when he has not improved on his previous game.

I have not read through all 4 pages on this topic so I apologise if it has been already said.

On Friday I spent long periods of the game just watching Jack Watts regardless of where the ball was.

His first quarter was poor and he seemed to be running around trying to get involved rather than sticking to his task. After this I thought he was good although at times he still looked a little lost. This is only experience which we see from almost all rookies in their first games.

Watts moves very nicely, he makes good space and should have had the ball kicked to him inside 50m on at least 4 other occasions. On all of these occasions he was well free in the corridor about 40m out with the ball coming down the wing, leading into space. Either the ball carrier did not see him or decided someone else was in a better position. From where was sitting it looked like he was in the best position in all four occasions. He could have easily had more shots on goal.

I think we should continue to play him, but his VCE will come first.

Mathews watched him for 5 minutes and made those comments. I watched him for about 80 minutes and I say:

"Relax….. Watts will be super star in years to come"

Very interesting..............

A shoot out for sure.

Can't see us winning away form MCG against a very sharp Essendon outfit. But it should be a good match, which will allow our young fowards to show us their stuff.

Ruck and midfield look v. weak. Hopefully we can get our hand on the ball enough to make a contest.

Can't wait!

Best Method of Tanking:

Put Newton in the team.

The fact is that if we win 5 or more games and miss out on a PP (Scully) while the like of WC (with 14 premiership players playing week in week out) we will be the laughing stock of the media, the entire football community, and AFL supporters (public).

It will not happen.

There are plenty of young players to blood and trial in different positions. There are players that must be played to see if they make the grade or should be delisted (for example Bartram, Dunn).............. and there are those who are sore and have niggling injuries that should and will be sent to surgury so as they are ripe for the start of the pre-season.

No way we are good enough to win 5 games.

If it was not for the likes of WC, Freo tanking we would be no chance of winning 5 games. We will only win 5 games if we are out tanked.

I am pretty sure the system will change after this year as this is ridiculous, but in the same breath we must not let ourselves be out tanked.

WC are better at it than Carlton.

This is going to be a very hard decision for our list managers come September.

However, it is time for you all to settle down and realise that due to the GC the value of underperforming the competition in terms of draft picks is greatly reduced after this year. This ridicules thing of being better off not winning will not be the case next year. We must look to win, we must play our best team. There is no point in delisting/trading players that are in our best 22. We are young enough and lacking experience. Just because a good, old player has disappointed you in a game or during the season does not mean they should be delisted if they are clearly in our best 22.

In my view:

Robertson: Should not be delisted or traded. Robo has come back from a very serious injury, he has had no preseason, and limited lead up game time, yet he has shown he can still beat the best defenders (Scarlett) in the competition with terrible delivery and limited supply. He will be much better with a preseason under his belt. His game last week was poor but he also had very poor, limited supply and he was far from the only one to under perform. He also takes the number one defender. He still has the ability and assuming he has the desire he should be given a new 2 year contract. He will be very useful as the 3rd medium/tall in the new forward line. His experience in the new forward line will be also very valuable. You will be surprised how good Robo will be without the best defender on him and some other capable players around him. I know he will probably not be there for our next tilt, however, there is no value in losing games after this season. We must start winning games again and Robo is still very much in our best forward line.

Rivers: Should not be traded: Rivers has been one of the good news stories of the season. You must remember that he has spent the last 3 or is it 4 seasons out due to injury, thats alot of football to miss. He has had massive injury problems and worked extremely hard to get back. He should be rewarded for this. If he is over his groin problems and can play out the season, he will then go into a full pre-season, start to gain confidence in his body and come back as a far better player next season. Our backline always looks better when he is playing. He is in our best 22 he is 25yo and if he remains injury free will only get better and faster. The idea of trading him for a 3rd round pick (we will not do better) is nothing short of stupidity, especially considering our back line is our only strength.

Instead I would look to delist/retire from the following list:

McDonald

Wheatley

Bell ?????

Whelan ?????

Bartram ?????

Valenti (not big enough and not fast enough for AFL)

Zomer (at the bottom of the list, playing Casey 2nds)

Hughes (at the bottom of the list, playing Casey 2nds)

Newton (pay out his contract unless he learns to kick at better than 70% (set shot) before season ends)

Some hard decisions will need to be made.

This week's Tiges v Wet Toast game is the one that will start the ball rolling.

If WC win, they will know that they are 100 to 1 on to win the return match against Richmond. This effectively puts them over the 4 win mark. This will render tanking for them pretty much redundant as it will only give marginal improvement to their situation.

If Richmond win, they will get to 3 wins as have WC. The Tiges are a funny side; they have enough decent senior players to beat a lot of teams and a win might well start the ball rolling, particularly if they can get Richo, Brown, Coghlan et al fit and firing. Add to that maybe Simmonds and Bowden playing for their careers.

In short, the winner of the game probably moves out of tanking range.

Note that the 4 win mark is the issue. This shows the real problem; it is not the draft per se, but the priority pick that causes tanking or perceptions thereof.

I totally agree with this.

The question is "Who would we prefer to win Tigers v West Coke?"

I have no respect for the West Coke for a number of obvious reasons. If WC lose they will tank out the season and get an undeserved priority pick (like last season), that is certain. This will limit us to Pick 1 and 3 at best.

If Richmond lose, the threat of losing Pick 2 is much reduced. Rawlings and many on the Tiger list will be playing for their careers for the remainder of the season and will still push for wins. Further the Tigers don't actually believe that they are as bad as they are. They believe in themselves and think they have just been poorly coached. They still believe that the backbone of their list has top 4 potential. I believe Richmond will give it one more crack in 2010 with the current list before wholesale re-building. With the GC team coming in the reality is they have little choice but to hope for a turn around with the current list. After all they were simply outstanding the second half of 08 and must be scratching their heads with their current form.

If Richmond lose it almost knocks WC out of the PP race. Richmond may pick up a PP but that would be after the first round. Thus it is more likely the Dees get pick 1 & 2 with a WC win.

If we fail to win 5 games, but Richmond come last we will get pick 1 (priority) and pick 3. Richmond would also get a priority pick at the end of the first round (about pick 18). You need to not win 5 games two years in a row to get a priority pick before pick 1.

We also need to watch the West Coke as they failed to win 5 games last year. Thus if they fail to win 5 games again they will also get a priority pick before pick 1 like us. The West Coke tanked big time last season, they are certainly have a far better list than us and are good enough to win 5 games. They play Richmond twice, Melbourne @ MCG, Freo @ Subi, and North @ Subi. Thats 5 winable games of which they need to win 2 to eliminate them from a Priority Pick. If they beat Richmond on Friday they should win 5.

Jarka: I completely agree. 2 midfielders may be necessary over Butcher.

Hi all,

I was disappointed with yesterdays game but not surprised. We have a young team that by its nature of being young will be inconsistent. I have noted that in most games during the season (not yesterday) the MFC has started well and faded in the 3rd and last quarter as the older, stronger lists have the stamina to maintain the pressure against our kids. I expect that this will not only happen during games but will also happen as the season moves on. In other words it is likely that our kids will get sore, tire and find it more difficult to compete as the season moves into its late stages. Certainly this was the case last season.

With 11 rounds to play I see only 5 games that we have any realistic chance of winning. It is unlikely we will win more than 50% of the games we have a realistic chance in.

R14: West Coke (MCG)

R15: Port Adelaide (MCG) - I think a win here is unlikely but possible

R18: Richmond (MCG)

R19: North (MCG)

R20: Freo (MCG)

In my view it is highly unlikely we will win more than 3 of these, especially considering that we are likely to "list manage" through the final rounds if we are any chance of reaching the dreaded 5th win. The reality is that we will be the laughing stock of the competition if we win 5 games. We will not.

By the way its our midfield not forward line which is our main concern, it is by far the worst midfield in the comp, perhaps the worst midfield I have ever seen at AFL level. Scully is desperately needed.

With Scully and Butcher + pick 18 we will have the list that should develop into something special. I'm excited.

"Watts the difference"

I for one have been fascinated with all the changes we are making. How can a side ever win games of football if there is never the same side two weeks in a row. The players cannot get used to eachother if we are consistently chopping and changing players around. Just my opinion but a team will not win games with the side changing every week.

Maybe this is part of the grand plan!

Dave86:

Your a class act, you are always welcome on this site.

.......................did I just say that about a Collingwood supporter??!?!?!?!?

Don't be fooled.

The Demology writer is just making an educated guess. I suspect he will have egg on his face in about 2 and a half hours.

I doubt the MFC have even decided on the team yet.

Green is a very tough player. He plays very hard with eyes only ever for the ball. I feel he is professional enough and tough enough to move back into the hole straight back from injury.

This is a massive compliment to Green. In his early days he was often critised for not going in hard enough. He has taken this critism and made a weakness into a streagth.

Good on you Brad you should be captain.

Exactly right mate well said however there will be skeptics and pessimists (see above) who would argue that it indeed harms the image of our club by stooping to Carlton's level. However if everyone over the past 10 years had done it why should the mighty Demons not.

When Hawthorn won the premiership last year, were you thinking "those cheats"? Did this even cross your mind? I suggest the answer is no.

In fact praise was given by all for excellent list management and coaching. The fact that they seemed to be playing for draft picks in 2004........ or I meant to say managing and playing their list did not get a mention.

If Carlton win a premiership in the next 5 years as I expect they will, let me assure you that people will not be talking about Carltank. Their 2007 questionable list management will have been forgotten about.

If Melbourne manages their list well in 2009 and receives picks 1 and 2 in the last uncompromised draft for 5 years and then goes on and wins a Premiership in coming years, I assure you the media and public will only have praise for Stynes, Bailey and the entire management of the club.

I know this topic has been talked about on many threads. However, I think its time to remind all of what Carlton did in 2007 and how they have benefited.

The years before:

2005 - Wooden Spoon

2006 - Wooden Spoon

2007

Premiers - NAB Cup

After round 11 Carlton had a record of 4 wins - 7 losses after back to back wins over the Western Bulldogs and Port Adelaide.

Round 16 v Brisbane Lions: Carlton loss by 117 points, Pagan Sacked. Ratten replaces as tempory coach.

Round 22 v Melbourne: A pathetic Melbourne wins its 5th game by beating Carlton by 31 points, in so losing its priority pick. Melbourne end the season with pick 4 (Cale Morton).

Ratten coaches out the season without a win, losing the last 6 games with an average losing margin of 30 points.

Despite coaching to 0-6, the Blues can't get enough of their new coach and on the 20th August 2007 sign Ratten to a two year contact (very suspect).

Carlton receive pick 1 and 2 in the draft after winning 4 games. Melbourne receives pick 4 after winning 5 games the 5th being Carlton in round 22. Carlton takes Cruzer with pick 1, and use pick 2 in part of a trade for Chris Judd. End result is Carlton pick up the undisputed best player in the competition and the best school aged player in the country.

Melbourne must learn from Carton of 07. With compromised drafts for 5 years this is Melbourne’s chance to take the best two young players in the country, stop other teams getting these players, add to the list with number one pick in PSD and complete phase 2 (list build) of the grand plan.

The advantage is further multiplied by the fact that there is next to no chance of other teams outside of the new clubs being able to replenish their lists over coming 5 years. Most current top eight clubs will be well past it by 2013/14. (Carlton and perhaps Hawthorn being the exceptions).

Conclusion: The MFC has a once in a life time opportunity. Adding pick 1 & 2 plus say 19 or 20th pick to an already impressive young list will give us the best chance of breaking our the premiership drought.

Now I am not suggesting to anyone that we should go out and try and lose games. We have a great young list and even the mandatory 3 delistings at the end of the season will be difficult let along the likely 6. Young players with potential will have to be cut. Best we give them all a run and make sure we are delisting the right players. We have a great opportunity to play all ready young players, try them in new positions and really give everyone on our list the chance to show us they have the potential to be a premiership player.

Life is too short, the precedent has been set. The draft rules must be changed but while they are what they are we must take advantage of them. Some may look down on this, but Premierships don't just happen. Hawthorn played out 2004 trying out their entire list and they were rewarded with Roughead, Franklin and a premiership. Carlton played out 2007 trying their entire list and they were rewarded with Judd, Cruzer and a soon to be opened premiership window. Melbourne must do the same if it too is to be rewarded. A Grand New Flag would confirm the saving of our great club. Lets not cheat lets just be smart.

I feel the changes are obvious for this weekend:

In: Green, Rivers, Bennell

Out: Dunn, Valenti, Petard.

I think Valenti is unlucky as he has had only one run in the seniors and did a few nice things, however, he did not get anywhere near enough ball for a midfielder on a day in which the MFC won the midfield and in doing so clocked up record posession. Valenti needs to take his opportunity. This time he did not, but I a certain he will get a couple more chances before the season is done.