timD

I love the criticism of Bail and Jones. Here are two blokes that have got the absolute best out of themselves and played AFL - unlike any of you clowns. And they are the least of out problems - they display an excellent attitude and willingness every time they play. The one thing we all hate - blokes not trying - is NEVER their crime. This criticism is pathetic. You should be thinking about garland, dunn, nate jones, lamumba, dawes, howe - people with years on them and far more skill who regularly "don't turn up" get beaten by their opponents or have no impact on games. Who set the tone - or fail to - game after game after game. Matt Jones and Ro Bail actually perform regardless of their dodgy "leaders"...they are let down only by a lack of natural skill. Criticism of them is a low act. Get some effin perspective.

The ignorance with the topic is shameful and galling. I think you've made an excellent contribution. Any understanding of social psych - and I mean 2nd year uni level - leaves no doubt as to what the booing is and represents. That people justify it as their right, or worse, that being criticised for it suggests some sort of reverse racism are just deluded tools. Get an education and some flippin' humility. It is also sickening that middle class white men sook about being called names. I am ashamed that my country is so backward. It seems that tolerance is a virtue except when you have to exercise it. FMD.

maybe your best post.

No - off the ball stuff, not off-field. Not questioning off-field SPR.

Adam, I've seen Jones ignore team rules, run around getting cheap kicks and regularly butcher his possessions. He doesn't do a lot of off-the-ball team stuff. Do you ever, ever see him instructing players, consoling players, directing? I see it very rarely. He is good without being very good. He struggles to lead by example and he struggles to lead through voice/communication. But he is the best we've got I think. He shows moments of good leadership. Moments. But what do we do? Song, he is not "the problem", but rather an example of one element of the problem - a dearth of genuinely talented players with leadership skills. We actually have none.

The leaders set the tone. In every organisation, everywhere. Followers figure out how to 'work' with the leaders that they get. There is no doubt that we have the weakest set of on-field leaders in the AFL - both in terms of man-management and competence-in-game. But we need them to protect kids. Only when dunn, garland, jones etc are replaced by kids able to out-perform them will we see meaningful change - but that requires talented kids with the right make-up. There is no evidence from anywhere that the MFC has figured out how to recruit yet. We are in a hellhole of our own creation. So as supporters we have to endure this situation. Our 'talent management' is just non-existent. Jones is a good example. He should never have been made captain...except there is no-one better. So we deal with it. But a leader? Really? If I get one more of Peter Jackson's "suck it up" speeches, I'll spew.

no they don't. And you'd know that they don't. So you are lying. I'm sure you are not ignorant. That leaves lying as the only alternative.Just baffled as to why. Many players do exactly what Goodes does onfield (boomer harvey for one) and NEVER get booed. You can point to dozens of sneaky snipers, precious umpire pets, or self-important tools and the truth is that they don't get booed at games or across games. It is a shocking argument - it is not even an argument, it is just a shameful rationalisation - a defence - of racist behaviour. It is gutless and horrid and should be rejected out of hand. This is so clearly a racial issue. Those that deny it (and I mean all if you) cannot all be ignorant to the sort of social psych pressures that lead to racist behaviour, cannot be ignorant to the 'cultural' racism inherent in white australia and the growing tolerance for racist attitudes over the last 10 years. It is utterly implausible. Actually, when you add up all those effects, the null hypothesis is that booing is racist it becomes your job to disprove it. All the forces at work make racist motivations the most likely state. Your job is to prove it isn't. And you can't. Lot's of players are unpleasant or easy to dislike. They don't get booed. Goodes does. Join the dots and man up the lot of you.

Shoooooooooooooosh!

BTW, it is also a brilliant strategy for moving players. He is not saying "that bloke is dead-set weak, cannot learn etc", he is saying "they need a new environment". We've heard that line before.

The actual reasons are a combination of a lack of talent, a lack of effort, a lack of intensity and a lack of experience (to different degrees in different players). To cap it off there is a lack of on-field leadership. That our best players don't play in the midfield and our midfield has had our last three captains. We have a weak culture, no on-field leadership and no-one heeding the call under pressure. He's been giving players 'a cuddle' for 18 months. Time for them perform or find another job. Where are the excuses? It isn't game style - we have at least two or three styles of play; it isn't player selection. The coach cannot tackle for them and he cannot invent a midfield overnight. Do you need help finding the bag?

Just want to know when you are going to follow your own advice on this thread and, ehm, "eat a bag"?

There is zero doubt that it is racist. Zero. "Unless it is well-founded" are you kidding? Think of the decades of research abotu bias, unconscious bias, racism and Australia. you are aware of this literature, aren't you? Because, it would be pretty daft to be talking about a subject in an unfounded way, wouldn't it? I'd be concerned about your thinking on this issue were you to be speaking from an - dare Ai say it - ignorant position. The "it can't be and if you think so, maybe you are" argument is, well, it is the equivalent of "I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?" My god. That sort of dodgy rhetoric is best left out, don't you think? And the war dance! Darling, sweetheart. Seriously. Who cares about a war dance. It is a dance FFS. A dance, from a man regularly racially abused, on the round that celebrates his race - a race that has been pushed into what will probably be a fatal decline. And we are a bit sensitive about hurt feelings of the crowd? Precious much? Maybe missing the point just a little? Lewis is a sniper but doesn't get booed. Fletcher is a spiteful jerk, but doesn't get booed. Selwood plays for frees constantly but doesn't get booed. Lindsay Thomas dives and gets booed. Whoops. There is no doubt this is about race, fueled by race, denied because of race and bubbling along because of race. Just got to get big enough to admit it.

19 possessions as their leading rebounding defender and architect of attacking play? How much influence did those possessions have? 19 is pretty weak and influence was modest at best.

The only issue is whether it got him high - and most bumps do. Otherwise I have no issue with the Goodes' bump.

Matt Jones shutting down Bob murphy. I only noticed murphy once and that was in the last quarter. Fitzy seemed to be where he needed to be and do what he needed to do at all times. I'm not sure he lost a contest. Toump ran well and needs time at this level. I think with him it really is just time. He'll always be a bit suspect under pressure, but experience will make a very big difference with him (which is not true of others). Brayshaw came into it once the speed came out of the game. He'll be a damn sight better next year. Howe is great fun to watch and it is games like that which will help us get something for him at the end of the year.

Bulldust. Watts is not a FIGJAM character. This is not the prime of his career by any measure that you'd want to make. obvious troll is obvious

It really nicely illustrates the folly of the "Jones is an A grade mid" party. He is a solid midfield citizen at best. It also highlights the recruiting black hole the last umpteen years have been.

Like I give a stuff about whether anyone agrees. You'd remember the posts I made about Stynes needing to be removed some years ago I think. I was real popular then. Almost no-one would disagree now. I think I was called a headcase then too, from memory. And of suffering from 'cognitive biases'. The gall! You've bagged Watts more than most and more intensely than most- just this thread is a 'quiet' one. Remeber the "tiptoeing through the forward line' quip you made last week? As for the 'character' work, if you are big enough to comment on others, you are big enough to expect a bit back. Assassination? I think not. You'd know if I actually did that. Go cheer the team. See the kids. We all know that Watts is a great kid; he's just not a footballer.

I prefer to judge people based on how they behave rather than use stereotypes. And i think that various people on this site want Watts to succeed and enjoy him failing. Who thought that motivations could be so complicated? You can PM for help any time. headcase! funny

...and I assume that post was written to elegantly prove my point. If so, nice. If not, call me. I can help. For a price. We'll talk later.

No it's not. People will claim it is frustration. "I just want him to live up to his natural talent", and " What a waste" and "If Nev jetta and half the he'd be a champ...Watts is wasting his talent" and "There are hundreds of kids gagging for a chance to do half of what Jack gets to do and he doesn't care" and on and on and on. But when you dig half a mil below the surface, all they are saying is " I feel bad/angry/whatever and I blame Jack". Everything else is just empty rationalisations. And then when you see posters like ProDee go on and on and on, then it is pretty bloody obvious that there is more than just some unemotional critique of a player. There is an investment in the effort of bagging the bloke. So why do it? Because it makes them feel better. And when you bag someone repeatedly to make yourself feel better, that makes you a jerk, to put it mildly. Getting off on putting someone else down. It is common, and kind of unremarkable and very human and fairly gutless and pathetic.

....and your perverse delight in bagging him. There are plenty of players who don't make it, or aren't that good. Watts is one and the attention and abuse heaped upon him (for things he probably cannot change) is sick and weird. It says a lot about you. I am sick of the mean, sadistic attitude that you and many others here have about the bloke. You enjoy seeing him fail. You actually enjoy it. And the funny part, the real kicker, is that you question HIS character. Get help.

I think smashed. And not in a good way.

I agree with the majority of this; I disagree about the Jones/Spencer thing. Spencer gave a handball to jones who ran himself into trouble. Spencer ran into position to get the handball; Jones saw him and turned away from him into more trouble. I'll need to see it in replay to be sure. Our mids are below standard. Everything else flows from that. They didn't work hard enough to give the backs an option so many times. Just poor workrate. Then, when they get the ball they fumble, mis-hit kicks etc.

Roos is trying to build a team that play their role and put in. Very clearly players that didn't have been removed. Not all of them btw; just those that can be lost to allow for the greatest potential gain. "The key is Dom" is just laughable. The key is the whole team playing as a team - comprised of individuals learning to play their role and trust their teammates. It is something we are bad at and it is the most basic aspect of modern footy, upon which all things (gameplan especially) rest. Give yourself a slow hand clap and find a mirror.