Wolfmother

Its all mathematics really. EG: Three people have been in the house. There were 6 eggs in the fridge. I had two eggs, you had 2 eggs and now there are no eggs in the fridge. Mathematics tells me the third person is responsible for the missing eggs. No one saw them take the eggs. That is circumstantial evidence.

No one can prove the players took a banned substance. The club ordered and paid for a banned substance. Thousands of injections of substances took place. No records of thousand of vials of approved substances exists. Now I am no mathematical genius but to me it is obvious. I agree with Stephen Hawkins, black holes exist not because I know they exist but because they must exist.

I wonder if the strategy is a little better than the egg story as their is only person who it could be. The issue is the players can admit they received injections but mine were all the normal ones.

An example: So if their is a thousand vials with 100 illegal substances and 10 players have 100 injections each. It's easy to say each player took ten illegal injections amongst their 100. It's easy for each player to claim I had 100 of the 900 good ones and I don't know who had the bad ones thus you prove I had the bad ones as we are all denying it.

I assume ASADA has the evidence against this but it is really the only way EFC can argue. There is texts from players regarding their thymo injections so some are gone and I would assume they have the evidence to show each players injection include a course of thymo

but we know that they were injected "thymosin"

and at doses you would use for tb4 and not for thymomodulin

they need to explain that

i wonder if they found invoices for thymodulin (at the appropriate market value)

This is where they will fail as they won't be able to show purchasing of the good thymosin even though this was a coached response. Who orders and pays for an illegal injection (about 10k worth) and then (as alleged by dank was destroyed by UV) doesn't reorder more for your program. EFC would need to show dank might of ordered the illegal drugs and picked the up but he actually took them to his private clinic and had EFC paid his invoice.

Even the coached response from the players that we were explained there is good and bad thymosin by dank and we were given the good one. Sounds like a great story but if in may 13 dank believed tb4 was not on the banned list (the age interview) why would he be explaining good and bad thymidine when he didn't even know that.

Again essendon has had a favourable media who has repeated the good and buried the bad but the holes are so big in their story that it can't matter

I would like to think, the club would have sat all the players down in a room, Doc reid would have explained to them exactly what they were going to be injected with, told them he had assurances that all of the substances were above board and there would be no lingering health issues associated with them, and explain exactly what benefit they see these injections providing.

clearly either none of that has happened or they have lied to the players. either way i'd suggest the club doctor is responsible.

That did happen with hird weapon dank and Reid all in the room when the waivers were issued and signed hence that's the players argument they were Duped

Just in case my last posts made you think I was supporting the duped argument, I believe they are guilty and their arguments are fanciful.

The comments I was making was trying to inform people of what EFC were trying to argue and how they were trying to fool everyone (and if you were a supporter you could see how they could justify the backing of their club with such plausible information that misses the real picture) The arguments won't work in the end but its an interesting exercise as they have used the favourable media to distribute the propaganda into what looks like a plausible explanation if you havent followed the whole thing as the facts that hurt the defence are quickly buried whilst the positive information campaign is repeated continually until it nearly becomes fact

They will be stuffed then because Dank was an employee. And if they don't have a paper trail they are stuffed. And if they signed off on payments for the drugs (which they did) then they are stuffed.

In short they cannot get away with the duped argument. The laws are not drafted like that because every athlete caught would claim the same. "Wasn't me it was my coach /trainer/doctor etc etc". It has to put the onus on the players.

Agreed I was just providing essendon and maybe what the AFLs think as they are pushing this duped thing in the media

I think you will find that the AFL's own code makes it clear that the players are responsible for what goes into their own bodies (isn't imparting such information a part of the player orientation?)... so unless the AFL plans to rewrite their own code, I doubt that they can really go against it.

The players orientation does state they are responsible for everything put their body but it goes on to say if you have concerns go to your club doctor. It mentions nothing about enquiring with ASADA so the players position is the club doctor was in the room when the drugs were discuss and approved them all. We have done what you want AFL as per your guidelines

JBurger, the players are responsible no doubt. But there are provisions to allow for things like an unconscious player being administered a PED in an emergency situation. This would be very rare and would not apply to the organised pharmacological experiment that was Essendon, but it is possible.

The Essendon players have no such argument. Conscious injection or ingestion would negate most arguments regarding being duped in an ongoing manner such as Essendon.

Another possibility I presume would be to argue that a complex program of misinformation involving doctors, managers and trusted confidants all conspired to mislead the players. This is very unlikely but possible in that it may proved wiggle room for the players, if taken it would be a fatal blow to the EFC.

What You are describing is exactly what EFC are trying to do. They are claiming the players were duped and no significant fault should apply and they will place that on dank a shoulders. They will have a reasonable case especially as the AFL own annual drug training to players states if you have any doubts or issue raise them with your club doctor will they did and nothing more which they can state they complied with.

I believe the AFL and essendon think this will entitle the players to either no penalty or a heavily discounted one if they are found guilty. They don't realise the WADA code is stronger than that and as the players had a list of the drugs (ie I wasn't a bottle labeled vitamins and contained steriods so they couldn't know) and made no reasonable enquires themselves to places like ASADA then they will cope the full brunt of the code

I fully expect this to all go totally ape shlt/pear shaped...once the tribunal announces the penalties. I come from the standpoint that at no real moment has the club ( for mine ) actually understood the climate and world it was now in. It to me still harbours notions of 'deals' and stuff. I think EFC and indeed the numbskull players think some negotiated settlement will manufacture. Some rude shocks awake. The Windy Hill fan club etc all think some rap on the knuckles and a bad boy fine might manifest itself where as the proper reality suggests a ban of at least a year ( probably ) more

Happy to be redirected in my thinking but I understand that once any ban is invoked, its in force. Neither an appeal nor court action are able to set this aside ?( i.e its on , til its not ...sts ) Actions can modify it but they are still banned until otherwise advised. I think this is part of the outcomes that most parties will be ill prepared for.

If there is justice then the all in bun fight that will erupt will keep the idiot players off the paddock whilst sucking every last cent that the Windy Hill idiots have in their delusional quest to reverse their situation.

I dont thoink the AFL will need to suspend or abolish the club. It will disappear into itself..

Totally agreed I don't think they release the position they are in as everything else in the AFL has always been swept under the carpet and they expect the same thing. They have an outside agency involved and the rules are quite clear although I must admit I was amazed with the NRL penalties.

The only thing that has amazed me and has me a little worried about the outcome is the AFL actions and not attempting to put anything in place for essendon when 17 where issues IN. The players are suspended until the matter is heard so wouldn't you start contacting replacement players issue salary cap ruling etx so if they are found guilty or the season starts they have things already in place. It's like the AFL knows they will be found not guilty and will have the decision released just prior to the season opening (this is the tribunals schedule) and use the opening round to minimise the commentary. Using that method and hoping that most people are over it they will have the media bury it pretty quickly .

That's what the AFLs inaction and the tribunal timeframe look to me. It I just can't understand how with the evidence that is public (besides the other stuff ASADA has) they could possibly get off

The fate of the EFC supplement scandal seems a bit of foregone conclusion kind of like Abbott as PM. A few people have opinions either way but the majority of people have lost interest and will just wait while things run their course.

Can't see how it could be, EFC have purchased and paid for PEDs (as per the invoice evidence) and there sports scientist has picked them up. The excuse they will damaged and in through them out is also as bad as the dog eat my home work

Interestingly, I think the opposite.

ASADA has had no choice politically but to take some action. My suspicions are that TB4 is their best chance which is why they've gone with that one over all the others. Given that it appears that the evidence is non-physical (ie, not a positive drug test result, but matters such as interviews, purchase orders and chains of custody), getting a case on each substance would be difficult, time consuming and potentially very arguable. I have no idea whether ASADA's case is watertight or not - but I can see the possibility of a less than solid case being pursued for political reasons. I suspect ASADA would rather try and fail than be seen not to be pursuing the matter at all.

If they catch them for one PED or ten they still only receive to two years so rather than bring in other evidence that may cause doubt just run with the one that will get the guilty verdict

I think this was an issue when the SCN were issues as EFC was complaining and wanting all the evidence obtained not just what ASADA was going to rely on. I think ASADA refused to provide it

The players were duped is a line they will run with and one which has been pushed by EFC to gain sympathy. In reality it won't matter as it can't be taken into consideration.

Whilst the players will point to the fact the AFLs guidance in their education products on PED says run everything through the club doctor the WADA code puts the onus on the players and if none of them made independent enquires with ASADA they have failed in their responsibilities.

Whilst the AFL guidelines and education products need a review but I don't think anyone saw a club doing this type of program.

If they are suspended let's hope the evidences is released to ensure the EFC fans can't pretend it's a conspiracy like they are saying now...

If the evidence isn't released sadly the bombers have done enough PR to paint themselves as the victims

"Our view is any athlete competing during their provisional suspension and prior to a final decision by a sport tribunal, has not respected their obligation under the World Anti-Doping Code and should not be entitled to a credit for the provisional suspension.

"The World Anti-Doping Code is very clear in this respect and our duty is to ensure sports comply with their responsibilities to the code."

This is a quote from ASADA (http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/asada-issues-warning-to-essendon-players-with-infraction-notices-20150211-13byoj.html)

which looks like a clear dig at Watson and fletcher saying you ignored the suspension thus we feel you are not entitled to back dating

I really think the AFL and essendon think the outcome won't effect the 2015 season ie 6 month sentences backdated to September.

Surely if you have 17 players at the tribunal you would start activating the contingency plan and have the top up player start training with you in the pre season. Has this occurred with the vfl bombers and they will just top that up??

My mind boggles how late they plan to leave the start of top up players to the club!!

From SEN:

Essendon players will not participate in any AFL-sanctioned games unless they are guaranteed any possible suspensions will be backdated to last year, says Mark Robinson. The chief football writer for the Herald Sun believes the Bombers will not participate unless they can be assured any suspension will start from the last time they played in 2014.

They must not be confident they can establish they are innocent. Hey here's any idea - they can threaten to boycott the entire home and away season unless their suspensions are backdated as well.

I think this is an issue between the club and the players but has been reported poorly. The club is petitioning the afl for players to be allowed to play under provisional suspensions.

The players are stating 'if we are not guaranteed of backdating thanks but not thanks we'll miss a few games', which I think is fair enough by them as the verdict will handed down in the middle of the nab cup. Also if they are handed two years sentences being available at the start of the pre season rather than in march may assist them moving to other clubs

You are right, it is a business for those getting paid, but for us supporters, it is more about emotion than business. Why else would you follow a team that has lived at in the cellar for so long ??? That is why we get upset when a player, especially a good one, leaves under somewhat false pretences.

I get it... I love this club and completely understand why we have a vested interest ... it's never going to change but players aren't like that and they are moving further away from loyalty so everyone needs to stop potting players that leave as we can't have an ability to kick trenners to the curb then cry when a player leaves

Most people on here wouldn't be telling there boss they are searching for a new job until they found it so why do we get upset with players looking around... Football is there life and after ready this training camp where they have to cook for themselves as a challenge they live in a bubble

I disagree in a way, take for example a Daniel Cross or Shannon Byrnes, people who are given an opportunity by a club to further their careers, don't they owe the club something in return? Daniel Cross has given our club heaps in return for our investment, Byrnes unfortunately didn't have as much of an impact!

No they owe are nothing...

Melbourne didn't say gees that Byrnes bloke is a good fella let's give him a contract because he's a good bloke.

Melbourne thought he would provide something and offered him a contract accordingly thus he owes nothing but that contract as when he wasn't up to it Melbourne were happy to cut him

How can you be "a little shattered?" Have you ever seen a window that was just a little shattered? I don't think so.

Seen plenty of windscreens just trip ?

When it first happens I was a little annoyed as I think there was some deceit there but still it doesn't matter as it's a two way street

Damn I wish I was there

No law against playing on an oval especially Olympic park as it's public besides what collingwood would have you believe

Who said they would arrest you if you didn't leave Olympic park???

What's the story there??

Did a guy with a tattoo bonk your misses/ take your job/ beat the shizen out of you? I'm genuinely interested to know why someone would hold such bigoted and generalised views on something that has literally no effect on them whatsoever.

I'm with old dee about tattoos and I understand what he is trying to say or this is my version:

The people who embrace tattoos as part of their lifestyles is fine but most understand that it may effect the future with things like employment but they are happy with that as it's their lifestyle so to speak.

What amazes me and probably old dee is the young people who are tattooing themselves due to 'the fashion style' and not thinking about the future. They think there is anti discriminations laws so it can't effect them but it will and other excuses used. This is what I find moronic as the lack of forward thought astounds.

It's everyone's right to get a tattoo but I wonder how many have thought about the consequences as with all fashion the sleeve tattoo will go out of style...

Would you laugh at a person dressing like the 80s now??

Although I must admit I was a little shattered with Mitch's actions as I thought his retirement and return was premeditated and lowered his trade value to Melbourne and he wasn't described as our highest paid player but a guy returning from retirement.... I moved on!!!

He doesn't owe the club anything regardless of what people on here think. Melbourne would flick him if it didn't suit us so why what does he owe the club.

Yes he was injured and we were paying him but that's a known issue with football contracts and can happen to anyone

Look what we were happy to do to trengove despite his loyalty!!!!

Players owe clubs nothing as it's all business

I really doubt work safe will be coming in hard like claimed here. Why I don't know, but ASADA is investigating performing enhance drugs only.

The AFL has already charged them for corporate governances issues which is more worksafes area and they haven't said boo. The performance enhancing area would/should not effect them so since they haven't done anything in nearly two years I doubt they will

I think you'll find lot of those visitors could be members as well.

I look at demonland from three computers and one is logged in at the moment but if it drops out I don't re log in unless I want to post

If Danks could really get them off by saying something like, "yes I got TB4, but decided not to use it on AFL players and instead had them injected with vitamins", then why hasn't he?

Because the reason/excuse is about as good as the dog eat my homework. The fact people believe this [censored] just shows how much want to believe.

It always easy to get someone to believe a lie if that's what they want to believe in the first place.

People need to do some 'so what' with the excuses. If dank ordered bulk tb4 and had it made but it was destroyed by uv light the question I would ask was where was the second order? If he claimed it was for his business or similar you don't order 100 vials and then when they don't arrive move on to something else. It defuse logic!!!

Not only that one of the players on the list should have a ASADA receipt number for all the items on the consent form and then they could claim they did everything in there power if they haven't then bad luck

If Danks could really get them off by saying something like, "yes I got TB4, but decided not to use it on AFL players and instead had them injected with vitamins", then why hasn't he?

Because the reason/excuse is about as good as the dog eat my homework. The fact people believe this [censored] just shows how much want to believe.

It always easy to get someone to believe a lie if that's what they want to believe in the first place.

People need to do some 'so what' with the excuses. If dank ordered bulk tb4 and had it made but it was destroyed by uv light the question I would ask was where was the second order? If he claimed it was for his business or similar you don't order 100 vials and then when they don't arrive move on to something else. It defuse logic!!!

Not only that one of the players on the list should have a ASADA receipt number for all the items on the consent form and then they could claim they did everything in there power if they haven't then bad luck