Whispering_Jack

This is where you and I differ.

Melbourne has a young improving list, a proposition I think that you'd support. If Brock McLean and Jarad Rivers were, for some reason, unavailable or not on our list, our position on the clock would not change drastically, particularly if they were replaced by players of a similar age (eg. Tenace and Merritt). What would change is the relative strength of our list compared to other clubs at a similar stage of development (spot on the clock).

This is a complex topic. Graz has shown we have quite a number of players who are "old" (on face value suggesting we are beyond 12.00 o'clock). The next step of course is to analyse how important those "old" players are to your team. I'd contend that Neitz is critical, Ward, Bizzell, Yze and Brown are not.

I'd contend "the clock" is a very useful tool, not necessarily easily understood. Hawthorn and Richmond wasted a couple of years when they misread it, or chose to misread it. We've got our reading about right and decided to act upon it.

All credit to the FD for doing that.

If this is a "complex" topic, the clock doesn't simplify it all. It doesn't have all of the answers - only some of them. As you say, you need to be able to analyse the importance of individuals within a team but if you want success you need to have a balanced team with the right combination of the different types of players. The clock doesn't give us too many answers in this regard.

Here's just one example. How does the clock help us in determining when it became/becomes necessary for Melbourne to actively start searching for an additional ruckman to cover the anticipated loss of Jeff White? This year, last year, next year?

It's arguable that White's use by date is getting very close. He's 195cm, the rules have changed in recent years to his detriment and you have agile giants like Cox running around in opposition teams. Sandilands has creamed him two years running. Mark Jamar hasn't done enough to date to show that he can take the #1 ruck mantle, PJ is a long way off and our only other ruckman is a rookie. There were very few ruck prospects in the 2006 and the best one was snapped up early. We didn't actively trade for a ruckman either. In other words, you could be in the right place on the clock but your team might not have the correct makeup.

On the issue of the strength of your playing list, perception plays a big role here. Looking at our "young improving list of players", I'll nominate one of the younger brigade. Michael Newton. My perception 6 months ago was that he could go on to become a very valuable footballer with some freakish ability. He might still do that but I'm already nowhere near as confident today as I was back then. That's an assessment based not only on reports from one practice match but it's based on what I've seen, heard and read through the pre-season. Time will tell.

On top of the many and varied "micro issues" that make this a complex subject, there's the problem that in any event, we can't even get agreement on what time we've reached on the clock. Where is Melbourne at the moment - 9pm, 10pm, 11pm, midnight, 1am?

That's why I'm not all that convinced about the usefulness of the clock in the overall scheme of things.

The clock is not for measuring success, it is a tool to help understand your list and make appropriate decisions.

At best a tool and I'm not sure how useful a tool it is, given all of the other factors that are in play in developing a successful list (not to mention the effects on list structure of injuries, rule changes, emphasis on athleticsm vs. size/both? etc).

If one or two fall by the wayside because of injury and a few others don't come up to the mark (e.g. Jared Brennan at the Lions - we all expected him to be a champ by now) then the place where you're at on the clock can drastically alter very quickly.

the evidence is from when he worked at other teams.....

Demon2. Your original claim was "Bohden strikes again" so the fact that something happened when he worked at other teams is not evidence that this is a case of Bohden "striking again" at all.

As far as I'm aware, the only team where he was previously associated with a high number of soft tissue injuries was in his last year at Hawthorn. He has worked with the Australian basketballers, in other sports including of course athletics and with other football clubs and individual footballers and I'm not aware of any complaints.

There was no evidence from the time he was at Hawthorn however, that there was a correlation between BB's training methods and the incidence of groin and hamstring injuries. The injuries might have been co-incidental or they might have been a result of the entire training regimen as applied by the football coach who was also replaced at the end of the year. So let's not call what happened when he worked elsewhere "evidence". If we're making that allegation, I think we need to find a lot more proof than that.

I couldn't make it down to the Dome today but have received some reports from the game. I'll leave it to those who attended to report in more detail but from what I've heard there was some reason for disappointment ahead of this week's NAB Cup opener.

For starters, Brock McLean missed the session with a quad injury (looks like he'll be out for two weeks) and Brent Moloney was nursing his groin. With Colin having a limited pre-season, it looks like a case of deja vu for three of the four horsemen at the Dome (at least Belly was on the job - he demolished Juice Newton). Paul Wheatley missed with some aparent injury and we know that TJ has a broken toe. The standard, as reported to me, was just so-so. But here were a few good rays of sunshine and hope coming through the open dome.

Nathan Jones was in sparkling form on the ball and Cameron Bruce was dominant. Matty Bate was very good and Lynden Dunn was impressive.

Ricky Petterd started well but after impressing early, appeared to injure a hamstring.

Brad Miller and Byron Pickett were both quiet. Jeff White ended with a blood nose while Mark Jamar was the pick of the ruckmen.

"Chip" Frawley had an interesting duel with Robbo, but the latter's experience told in the end. Simon Buckley showed good progress over last year's form.

Dennis Commetti was apparently centimetre perfect with his commentary even at this early stage of proceedings and the crowd was a bit less than for Sunday night's A League grand final due to the lack of publicity and general uncertainty as to whether the fans could get it at all (apparently 7's fault, not the MFC's).

Over to the guys who went.

The Herald Sun's front page article today contains material which IMO defames Daniel Ward.

"Goodwin yesterday admitted to betting on AFL matches not involving Adelaide, while it is believed repeat offender Ward included Melbourne victories in multi-sport bets over several codes."

Ward is not a "repeat offender". He admitted in 2003 to having problems with his gambling debts but I don't believe that gambling per se was an offence for AFL footballers or anyone else for that matter.

If what he's done is true, then he might have been stupid, but it's a bit of stretch for the Herald Sun to call him a "repeat offender" and to the extent that this slur could affect the result of the AFL's investigation and any penalty that might be imposed it should be withdrawn forthwith.

We have probably over-emphasised the strong-bodied type and are now trying to re-adjust to get a better balance.

I'm with you Scoop but it appears to me that Collingwood is perhaps adjusting in the wrong direction. Its recruiting emphasis was on talls at the expense of young midfield talent and its midfielders are bulking up when, by and large, they are getting older and are deficient in pace if anything. On top of that, one of the better movers on their forward line (Tarrant) has gone and they look like going with Rocca and Cloke as their taller forwards (not much movement there). Medhurst isn't quick either.

I like the set ups that the last two grand finallists have had a lot better and if we're moving in their direction then well and good.

And BTW, the Brisbane teams that won 3 on end weren't just power teams, they had plenty of run as well - particularly in their midfield.

With the season fast approaching, the Herald Sun seems to have ramped up its beefcake section and has a feature today with Nathan Buckley, Paul Licuria and Brodie Holland all showing off their muscled up torsos.

The funny thing is that I thought this year's go was all about producing slender, light bodies with the aim of better handling the extra speed of the game. It certainly appears to be the case at Melbourne where BB has them all trimmed down and ready for a more running type of game.

Am I missing something?

A bag of fruit that is pure gold. ha ha

I don't want to be a party pooper here but I don't think we're supposed to be encouraging any gambling or betting or anything like that so let's just say that all of the above are only hypotheticals.

ok cool

We will still have match reports (although I'm not a big fan of the Nab Cup myself) and other features in the interim before Round 1 of the real stuff as usual and these will be posted on the message board.

I find Bode puzzling. He came to the club as rated to be picked in the draft (reasonably early...30s?) and with a rep as a state level 200m runner. He loooked hopeless in the NAB cup last year, making it understandable why he was overlooked. After a long season he makes a bit of progress and gets some gigs in the Sandy ones toward year's end (like Buckley). I then read he runs like a crab and later is in BB's project group along with Dunn et al to improve their running techniques and ultimately speed and mobility. It's quite odd.

Nevertheless he's got another year to develop and improve so good luck to him. The rookie list is giving him the time he obviously needs.... he's certainly got his work cut out for him.

That got me last year too because I've seen plenty of athletes and particularly 100 and 200m sprinters and Bode didn't look like one on the football field last year. I don't know if he had a problem like OP but if he did that might be the explanation.

Long time reader... Love the site.

Just curious as to how Daniel Bell played? He's one of my favourite players. There hasn't been much said about him in the pre season.

Also does he train with the midfielders or defenders? I think his best position would be in the middle.

Thanks and go Dees!

I didn't go to Moorabbin this afternoon because like many of you, I actually work for a living. However, I've just been at a meeting also attended by Redleg and had a chat with him about the "match simulation session" (obviously the influence of Grant Thomas remains all pervasive down there at Moorabbin ). Anyhow, I believe that his comment about Belly is that "he tackled ferociously" which is what you like to hear about someone coming off half back.

Hopefully, Redleg, Scoop Junior or one of the others will come on later to expand on that but FWIW I think Belly's in for a good season. I spoke with him briefly at training on Australia Day at Trinity Grammar and he was full of praise for the training regimen he'd undergone thus far and the fact that, as a result, he was getting through training without feeling in pain which is the opposite of what was happening this time last year.

And the word on TJ is that he has anything from a "niggle" to a broken toe.

There's a report on melbournefc.com.au about how Neale Daniher saw proceedings and his objectives for the forthcoming Nab Cup.

BIG RED SIGNING IN:

I am assuming a "match simulation session" is now the new fandangled term for praccy match. If that is the case we are playing at Moorabin today at 3pm. Shame about the lack of notice:(

I believe that regulars Redleg and Scoop Junior have gone down to Moorabbin and will provide a comprehensive report at some stage of the day.

Madness alright

ATM it's all the same no matter what team you're talking about.

I'll be glad when the hype ends and the real stuff starts in Round 1 at the end of March. It can't come soon enough.

Well, it's definitely next Friday night - 9th February 2007.

I can't believe it - football less than a week away!

That wasn't real football it was a farce.

There were two teams out there but only one of them was ready to play. The All Stars were far too undermanned in the ruck and key positions. The farcical withdrawls of Adam Goodes, Michael O'Loughlin, Lance Franklin and probably one or two others has effectively killed off what could have been a great concept. Franklin withdrew from the All Stars ostensibly because he had a knee injury but then turned up playing for Hawthorn in a practice match yesterday. Will the AFL take any action over this? It's highly unlikely and that's what makes these games such a joke.

State of Origin football was killed off because the star players from certain clubs didn't want to take part, preferring to look after their own and their clubs' interests. That's fine but they shouldn't then cry over spilt milk when the concept dies an inevitable death whether that be Internationl Rules, All Stars or State of Origin.

this post just dropped off page one...

will this be tolerated ??

it shall not (be tolerated)...

come on, whispering jack...

and lesser mortals...

come to bloody wang and we will show you a good time !!

Rollo! I couldn't make it to Wangaratta but I'm waiting with bated breath for your report. What's happening over there man?

Well Travis is magical

Brad Hodge the Australian Cricketer looks like Brad Hodge the MFC supplementary list player of the early to mid 90's.

You are a marvel Jack. How do you turn an ordinary summer training session into a sporting event worthy of such prose? Demonland is truly very fortunate to have you.

Thanks for that Redleg.

To explain, I was really writing about something more than just "an ordinary training session" - it was more a case of writing about something that's concerned us for a few years now and that is the way the team hasn't been able to sustain itself after reaching a position from which a decent challenge for the premiership could be mounted. What is it going to take to overcome that and get us into the top echelon?

I'm hopeful that the measures taken by the club address the problem but I guess we won't know the answer for a while yet.

In the meantime, I can tell you that the exercise of revisiting the defeat at Subiaco was probably more painful in January than it was in September last year. I can't get over the way we were reeled in so easily after getting that two and a half goal lead and the way the Dockers dominated us for the next thirty minutes of football. If you are going to overcome that then you can't have any ordinary summer training sessions on the agenda. It's all hard work from here on in.

I wouldnt bother waiting uo to watch it

It was a 1 minute snippet, with the standard cliches from Bruce. Maybe 10 seconds of training vision, if that

I'm happy with 10 seconds of training vision and a 1 minute snippet. To get more time, your club needs to be falling apart at the seams.

Yeah, I'm not sure why Essendon got a gig. Unless it's something Sheedy organised. He has been a pretty big supporter of aboriginals in football for years now.

Looks like if Alwyn Davey hasn't been picked for the All-Stars, he'll line up for the Bombers.

Be great if both Davey boys lined up on each other on a wing or something.

Miller looks far more comfortable at CHF but there are going to be times when he'll have to go down back. I'm amazed at how he always seems to be able to handle Barry Hall so well but struggles against some lesser forwards when in defence.

As for Lynden Dunn, I think he'll become a permanent feature in the lineup but it could be anywhere from the wing to HFF and even CHF. The interesting thing will be what happens if Michael Newton also steps up this year.

Ta, WJ.

Well, I finally watched the rest of that game (Tasmania v Box Hill VFL Round 20) and Colin Garland's performance was reasonable for a first full game at this level. He was named on a wing but I'd say he spent a fair amount of time on a HFF and was quiet in the first half although he gave the ball off twice to rover Ian Callinan for goals in the second quarter. After the first quarter it was a pretty one sided game and Box Hill was pretty ordinary. Tassie had numerous smalls who dominated the game - Benny Beams, Simon Atkins, Troy Makepeace, Ben Setchell, Callinan and a couple of Geappens. These blokes kept chipping the ball around and ran all day - often unmarked. Garland got more involved in the second half and by the last quarter was picking up kicks at will. Not a bad effort and looks like a possible player with a lot of hard work and growing to do and you'd want to see him under a bit more pressure before giving a final assessment.

The Box Hill team contained Xavier Ellis and Beau Dowler who were both early draft picks in the 2005 National Draft. Both had an off day and Garland compared favourably with them. The most impressive player on the ground was Tassies Jack Riewoldt who was drafted by Richmond and looks a player.

Thanks to WJ and Toad33 for your excellent coverage of training. Please continue to keep us informed and also let us know when and where the next training sessions take place. Are the clubs being affected in ground selection by the drought?

As to the players DD36 enquired about -

I noticed Daniel Hughes do a couple of good things at training but wasn't really focussed on him.

Likewise for Heath Neville except I noticed him having a few kicks towards the end and he looked quite balanced.

BB mentioned Jace Bode as being one of the players who had done well with the speed and endurance training he'd been given but again I didn't notice him much.

If I can get the time off work to see a practice match I'll concentrate on some of the younger players like those above and the 2007 newcomers but don't expect too much too soon.

Jaded - Toad33 is spot on when he/she says that it's "BLOODY hard trying to identify players, let alone keep track to them, when you are used to seeing them in MFC jumpers". With Jarrod Rivers I would agree that he looks bigger in the upper body but that might be because he seems to have slimmed down everywhere else. All I can say is that he's looking pretty good and even appears a bit taller.

I'm not sure however, as to whether he'd be able to handle the monsters but if the game is evolving to a point where athleticism is god, then we have to expect that there are going to be fewer monsters around. I'm not suggesting that the big-bodied key forwards are going to become extinct like the dinosaur ruckmen but they're going to need more than size to get around in the AFL. That's what I like about the new, sleeker version of David Neitz.

Incidentally, I saw Leigh Matthews at Brisbane's training talking up Jonathan Brown and the fact that he hopes to have him fit and going for Round 1 after a horror year with injury last year. That may be the case but for the moment Brown has developed a sizable backside and is making Serena Williams look positively anorexic. He's got a fair bit of work to do before he can terrorise the AFL's top defenders again. So has Anthony Rocca at Collingwood - he was found lacking late last season and my Collingwood friends reckon he's not showing signs of any greater speed or endurance this year. Perhaps he should be thinking of joining his brother in the NFL as a kicker.

But getting back to Rivers, the big benefit of a training regime under Bohdan B is that he might be better suited to playing on someone like Nick Riewoldt who would have killed him for pace in past seasons.

As for Dutchy, I'm sorry but I can't confirm much about him. He trained but didn't really stand out to me but, as indicated earlier, as Toad says it was hard to keep track of some of the players because the changed tops both between and during drills which made it hard to keep up with everyone doing different drills going over a large grassed area. At one stage I noticed Isaac Weetra wearing a yellow # 42 top, then someone else was wearing the same number and a few minutes later Daniel Hayes was wearing it.

I figure this must be one of Neale Daniher's ruses to confuse opposition club spies because it got me a few times.

Toad33's (please don't wait for me to post though) done a great job describing the drills but I must confess I thought Anthony Rock had gone on to other pastures and the assistant coach in question might have been Paul Williams. Whoever it is who's doing the midfield drills, they look creative and challenging for the players.

The practice matches will tell us more on how some of the younger players are developing.

But my question is how did Jace Bode go?

Jace Bode was there also and, like a number of the players, looked as if he had fined down a bit and, as a result, was running better than last year. It's really difficult to say how well the players went because there were a number of different skills drills and they were changing guernseys during some of the drills. I think we'll know a bit more about players like Buckley, Neville and Bode when the practice matches start.