Whispering_Jack

Beamer, Hughes, Garland, Frawley, Buckley, Davey, White, Ferg all playing.

Little wonder that our rucks are winning. Do the Crows have any ruckmen left standing?

BTW: Heath Neville is one of the selected 28 not playing as he played in yesterday's Sandy praccy game.

Crows just kicked their first and are getting more of the play in the second term.

Melbourne 3.1.19

Adelaide 1.4.10

Quarter Time:

Melbourne 3.1.19

Adelaide 0.2.2

Remember we had the advantage of the wind in the first quarter. However - note SEN report below.

SEN report - Quite good conditions. Demons look very controlled in their use of the ball. More settled than the Crows. Said the weather wasn't bad and the wind wasn't all that strong.

lol of course not, unless you had some super dooper radio receiver that receive signals from adelaide!

Melbourne 3.1.19

Adelaide 0.1.1

Jamar mark and goal for our third.

is it NAB cup rules or normal ones?

Normal rules.

Matthew Bate kicks Demons' second.

Melbourne 2.1.13

Adelaide 0.0.0

http://www.asthecrowsfly.com/modules.php?name=Forums

The Crows' version of Demonland

... score from a friend

Melbourne 0.1.1

Crows 0.0.0

Dees kicking with the wind. Brad Green - first goal.

I will be using this thread waiting for Crows fans to give updates

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302535

... or you can try this one

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.p...2460&page=2

Send a letter of abuse here to the guys currently on-air ([email protected])

They may even read it out

And how will we know if they do?

You can't listen to the game online.

What a joke.

They don't have the rights to stream the commentary on the internet. What a joke it's only a bloody practice match!

Hards is correct that he isn't handling the day to day managing of the players but he would still have access to 'sensitive information' which could give his club an advantage when it comes to trading time.

Very ordinary decision by him imho.

The AFL has a system which enables player/managers to be registered. From memory, I believe that Joseph has always resisted complying with the registration requirements and the AFL has sat back on its hands doing nothing (possibly fearing a restraint of trade action). Yes, it's a conflict situation and no, I don't think there's much the AFL can do about it under current rules although it should reintroduce the poaching rules to prevent Joseph from using his dual role to give the Kangaroos an unfair advantage.

http://www.theage.com.au/realfooty/news/af...2338624164.html

I think one of the most important aspects of this exercise is not the extra revenue it generates from membership sales but from the message it sends to potential sponsors, business partners and advertisers that this club has a larger following than what past membership numbers have shown.

Of course, we're still going to have to work a lot harder to get our supporter numbers off their backsides and going to games rather than watching it on their tv's (look at Sunday's crowd v Hawthorn compared to the crowd at Carlton v Esendon the night before) but it's a start and will definitely help build the prestige of the club and prevent us from going the way North Melbourne seems to be heading.

When you are writing about fitness being added I don't think I would throw in the name Pickett.

Unless you're writing about the fitness or otherwise of Pickett's direct opponent after the match.

Maybe we should've played tempo footy at the end of the 3rd to make sure we were in a winning position?

Not a bad idea.

I'm sure there must be some plans to stem the tide when the opposition gets a run on although I suppose that if they exist, you wouldn't want to expose them in the Nab Cup.

Get a grip on yourself Redleg. It's the 21st century, not the mid 20th when old Jim Cardwell used to handle all of those jobs whilst wearing one hat and taking bubkes as salary. Understand this and you'll be able to manage.

Whispering Jack

(poster stress and enlightenment manager - Demonland)

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere on this site, but are practice games subjected to the same zany rules (ie. 9-pointers) as the NAB cup, or will we get a more realistic match simulation?

I spoke with one of the players today and he told me that the rules are the fair dinkum rules that apply during the regular season.

To my mind, that's what the clubs should be focussing on even at this stage of the year - the real thing!

I agree that we should be focussing on the real thing but we shouldn't lightly dismiss some of the problems highlighted by this game.

I was disappointed that even in a pre-season game, the team was able to relax the pressure late in the third quarter. That's been one of our failings in the past and I think good teams don't relax when they have a grip on a game. Had we held on till three quarter time and gone in with a lead in excess of 30 points it would have been much harder for Hawthorn to gain that final quarter momentum.

I thought the forward line set up was a bit too top heavy and static. Clearly, room has to be made for Aaron Davey in there somewhere.

There were plenty of other things that didn't work on the night and thankfully we have a month to sort things out before round 1.

The most interesting stat has to be the one reported in the Herald Sun this morning. Melbourne had 199 handballs (100 by half time) and 154 kicks on Sunday night - apparently the first time the team has had more handballs than kicks. Only four teams achieved this in the 2006 regular season and Neale Daniher remarked that ..."(we) have been working on just running and carrying a little bit more." That's a bit of an understatement!

Does anyone have a link to the stats from last nights game?

Thanks to anyone who can help.

They might have them in this week's edition of Inside Football.

On sale at all good (and bad) newsagents on Wednesday.

People who think that the "run and carry" play lost us the game really miss the point.

This is the point. When we had the legs to implement the "run and carry" game, all be it pretty ordinarily at times, we pantsed them. It was only when we ran out of legs we got beaten.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good bitch session.

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

I liked most of what I saw last night.

I agree with most of that although I'll add that this was our first attempt at a different style and we simply couldn't expect it to work with full effect all evening when half of our most talented players were on the sidelines. I'm not making excuses for the defeat, it's just that I don't think this competition is all that particularly important in the scheme of things and our coach and football department have made it clear that their objective was to have the team right for the regular season and peaking at finals time.

Interestingly, for the second year in a row, West Coast and Sydney who played of in the finals in '05 and '06, lost their opening Nab Cup games. In fact, every team that won at the weekend finished lower than the team they beat. No offence to Carlton or Launceston, but I'm happier that we're having a hit out this week against Adelaide (albeit at Mt. Gambier) with minimal restrictions on playing lists and outside the public glare of televised Nab Cup madness (the rules give me the absolute Eartha Kitts). IMO it's better preparation for the football department than a gig in Tassie (with apologies to Nasher, Tassie Devil and our other Taswegian friends) against the Bloos.

There's a lot of questions there and despite them being rhetorical, I'll have a crack at a few of them.

Do you think lists have a "cycle"?

Yes they do but not in the form of cycle that you can universally compare all teams with like a clock face because a clockface is one dimensional and this discussion has shown there to be several dimensions to measuring where your list happens to be at. I'd be delighted to have a dozen 23 year olds all with Chris Judd's ability but no two 23 year olds in the competition are alike and there's only one Chris Judd.

Would you have called Brisbane's list young or old (improving or in decline) in 2005?

Brisbane has been a club in decline since 2004/5 and it had less to do with the structure of the list than with -

(i) the personal interplay between the coach and some of the players,

(ii) salary cap issues,

(ii) a bad run with injury and

(iv) the failure of some of its prized recruits to come to the fore as quickly as was originally anticipated.

Do you think it would have been reasonable for Melbourne to trade an early draft pick this year for a player who was (say) 27 or 28 and provided something we needed over the next 2 years?

I know I'm sounding like a broken record but I would have tried to get a top line ruckman with 4 to 5 good years in him for a second rounder because, as you know, I'm not satisfied that we're doing enough to cover the situation with Jeff White. The rule changes pertaining to ruckwork and the passing of time have reduced his effectiveness from the time he made All Australian (2004?) until now. He's getting very close to the end of his career and I'm not convinced that our other ruckmen can step into his shoes and be competitive against the best ruckmen in the competition (although I look forward to tomorrow night to see how The Russian, PJ and possibly Shane Neaves go in White's absence).

The draft wasn't likely to provide us with a ruckman fitting our selections so if we wanted another ruckman then, we needed to trade. But, as CAC explained, it would have been difficult to trade for another ruckman during the 2006 trade period. The pool of potential ruckmen from other clubs wasn't that particularly strong and the good ones might be asking why go to a club and play second fiddle to White for a couple of years and also compete with Mark Jamar for the understudy's position?

I wouldn't have traded a second round selection as Sydney did for Spida Everitt.

Congratulations Josh to you and your partner on Jacob's birth and well done for getting him involved with the club so early in his life. It's a good choice of name too!

The FD must be contemplating playing Neaves because I don't see why they would have named a replacement for Ben Holland at all. Either that or they're sending him a message that he's getting close.

As for replacing Holland with Newton, I don't think it would be a good idea. Based on all of the information I've received from those who saw him in Tuesday's practice match, his (Newton's) performance was very much below par. The message they would want to give him from that is that if he wants to play in the big time, he's got to produce some good form to justify it first.

There is no doubt we need succession plans for Neitz and White. We have Dunn, Newton and Garland on our list as developing tall forwards. We need to address White longevity. If I know this you can bet your bottom dollar CAC does.

This is an issue that I think is an important one for the club. I raised it at the Demonland/Demonology sponsorship meeting and while Craig acknowledged it, he wasn't as concerned as I am.

Three years ago, we didn't have a player 30 years and over. We're getting to a stage where we now have several abnd, as DH pointed out, if they all happen to retire at once, we could be in a position whereby we're going to have to make a large number of changes to our list all at once. I think this could expose us somewhat - especially if it happens in a year when the draft pool is not strong. As for ruckmen, we know it takes a long time to develop good ones and therefore the planning needs to be longer term.

In terms of your clock theory, we might fall over the precipice and end up at 3am before we know it.

by Whispering Jack

Australia Day 2007.

It's a beautiful, calm summer's morning as I make my way towards the Trinity Grammar playing fields to take in Melbourne's skills training session.

A little more than four months have elapsed since the Dockers beat the Demons at Subiaco and I reflect on how the team has disappointingly bowed out of each its past three finals campaigns.

Melbourne seems to have developed a habit of peaking a little after mid season, limping into the finals and then faltering without mounting any real challenge to the top AFL teams in September action. This story has by now been well documented.

Which brings to mind an old adage in sport that you're only as good as your last game.

I'm reminded of how Melbourne was playing with confidence and had Fremantle rattled and held a 15-point lead midway through the second quarter of the 2006 Semi Final. Then Chris Connolly made a few changes and the Dockers proceeded to turn the game by running the legs off their visitors who were becalmed and eventually wilted by the warm humid air drifting into Perth from the Indian Ocean.

Freo's midfield had too much pace with Heath Black, Byron Schammer and the Carr brothers all winning plenty of quality possessions. With a few exceptions, the Demons appeared sad and slow and in the end lacked the necessary endurance to run out the full distance of a gruelling finals game. This applied not only to the on ball brigade but to the forwards and backs - they fought hard but for the most part were beaten mentally and physically all over the ground.

That was our last game and it stands as a reality check as I cross the Eastern Freeway and approach the training venue.

This is the time of year when the general feeling at every club is one of optimism looking forward to a new season. You will hear the same story everywhere - the injuries suffered in the previous year are healing, the players are looking fitter than ever, those who have previously been labelled as "potential" are starting to mature and there are a fair number out there who are, as they say in the classics, "training the house down."

But I'm not here looking for the stars at training. What I want to see is something that might signal a change – that things are happening to address the problem of those end of season fadeouts; that Melbourne is taking steps to ensure that it has the physical and mental wherewithal to match it with the best throughout the long grind of an AFL season. This was the major factor that was lacking in 2004, 2005 and 2006 when the team peaked too early!

I'm not particularly into describing training drills but I must say that a lot was going on by the time I arrived. Players in different coloured guernseys were running with their footballs up and down the length of the playing fields and one thing that was clear was the emphasis on running. The rule changes and the latest coaching tactics and strategies have demanded more and more athleticism. It's not enough to just be a footballer these days.

Enter Melbourne's new fitness advisor Bohdan Babijczuk.

Babijczuk has received plaudits as fitness coordinator at Hawthorn (where he was seen as a key component of the Hawks' push to the Preliminary Final of 2001) and with the national men's basketball team. His experience in athletics goes back three decades from competitor to high level coach and he has been used as a consultant at a number of different football clubs.

At Hawthorn, he took Shane Crawford's 800m time down from the 2:20's to well under two minutes and Crawford went on to win a Brownlow Medal fortified by his added speed and endurance. More recently he took Western Jets youngster Bachar Houli under his wing and improved his 20m sprint time from 3.25 seconds to 2.96 seconds within a fortnight by the time of National Draft Camp. Houli was subsequently drafted by the Bombers in the recent National Draft and I understand has since significantly bettered that time at Essendon.

The Babijczuk influence at the club is apparent immediately. Many of the players have significantly changed body shapes, the skinfolds are way down and a few look faster and stronger as well as sleeker. Nathan Jones and Brock McLean stand out. Jones has dropped 7kg to 80kg - a loss of almost 10% of his previous body weight.

"He is a cut above the rest," Jones says of the man who is training footballers at the club to be fitter, faster and stronger than they have ever been. Daniel Bell, who has lost 3kg, talks of feeling much better and having the capacity to get through pre season training pain free under his regimen. Brent Moloney is training solidly and is definitely moving more freely as he relishes the absence of the osteitis pubis that put a premature end to his 2006 season.

A few years ago I spoke with a Hawthorn player who was competing during the summer season at the Glenhuntly athletics track. He was suitably impressed by the fact that Babijczuk had tailored individual fitness regimes for every player at the club aimed at increasing the intensity once things got simple.

The training regimen requires a fair degree of strong discipline from the players and that part is certainly showing out starting at the top. David Neitz is looking more like a rising colt in his mid-twenties than a veteran who has passed his 31st birthday. Babijczuk says that the player whose speed has improved the most is another post 30 year old in 2006 All Australian James McDonald and it looked that way as Junior zipped through a training drill aimed at moving the ball swiftly out of the clearances.

The players flash past and it's difficult to recognise some of them as they sport different hair colourings; they change guernseys regularly and then there are those different body shapes. Nathan Carroll, who kept key Dockers forward Matthew Pavlich well held in that last game at Subiaco, seems to have undergone a complete personality change since he arrived at the club as an unknown rookie from Fremantle a few years ago. After a year in which he must have come tantalisingly close to being an All Australian, he knows now that he belongs in AFL circles. I expect that both he and Jared Rivers will gather further in stature with the benefit of this pre season.

I could go on and on but I'd probably be charged with the same over optimism I complained about earlier and the point is that a football hasn't yet been bounced in true competitive anger.

That will change in the next few weeks as the intra practice games start. Apparently the club is planning one at Moorabbin and another at Telstra Dome in the week before the Nab Cup matches to give the Channel 7 crew a bit of practice for the forthcoming season. There's no truth in the rumour that The Twelfth Man has been pirated away from Foxtel to do the voices of all of Seven's football commentary team as a cost saving measure (although he does do a very speshialllll Bruce McAvaney impression).

If anyone fears that the intensity of athletic training might be harmful to the players, they should think again. Virtually the full squad was on hand at Trinity Grammar with Chris Johnson the only absentee - he was back in Perth to celebrate his 21st birthday. A small group is still in rehab, notably Colin Sylvia (shoulder and OP) and Clint Bartram (ankle) but they are apparently not far away from resuming training. A couple of others like Paul Wheatley and Matty Whelan sat out parts of training but on the whole things were looking good - even when I took off my rose coloured glasses.

There's a lot of interest in the new blood at the club but none of them stood out at this training run. They're all still young and shy and have a way to go although there are some reports that James Frawley might get a run in the NAB Cup. Both he and Colin Garland certainly have awkward kicking styles that nevertheless don't appear to inhibit their accuracy. However, we'll wait and see what they're like under pressure in matches.

Simon Buckley looks ready for a crack at the big time after a year with Sandringham, Shane Neaves has developed a six-pack and will be looked at with interest while Michael Newton will surely be tested in the Nab Cup. My early tip for big improver among the younger brigade is Lynden Dunn - another of Bohdan Babijczuk's projects.

Ultimately however, the players are in the hands of Neale Daniher and his coaching panel. They now have under their control what is most certainly a more athletic group with greater pace and better endurance than that which left 2006 behind them at Subiaco.

But there's a long way to go from a calm and balmy summer's day at Bulleen to what this group might achieve in the months to come when the springtime returns.

If it is the AFL rules that it can seek such information about a player and it is a condition of their contract with a Club then it is as good as.

That may be so but you said ... "If required under law to divulge information to authorities."

In that context the AFL doesn't have any basis under law to obtain the information in the way the police or tax authorities might. As I see it, the only way it can access Betfair and Tabcorp's information is with the prior consent in writing of the players and that most probably would be by way of a standard clause in the player's contract giving such consent. The problem the AFL has set for itself is that there are so many other betting agencies that won't allow information to be given over so they really have to review their processes because the likelihood is that these blokes are stiff (and stupid) enough to have placed their bets with the wrong people.

Not useful? Agreed, it isn't for detail, but it is for strategy.

Where do you think Carlton are on the clock?

Where do you think Adelaide are on the clock?

Where do you think Melbourne are on the clock?

Being somewhat anticlock I can't really answer these questions but let me put it this way.

To my mind, the theory is not sophisticated enough to gauge the complex realties of a sport at an elite level like AFL football. The concept of a clock face is too one dimensional to adequately define the cyclical nature of a particular team's development within such a competition.

The key is the word "cyclical". AFL is more than just a sport; it's big business and, as such, it operates according to the same lines as all other businesses. The clubs that make up the AFL are subject to cyclical fluctuations that are dependent upon several factors, not the least of which is the strength of a particular club's list but there are many others. The premiership clock theory tells us where people think a club should be in terms of the make up of its list based mainly on how the list comprised in terms of the age and experience of the players. The other important factors that come into play in determining the success of a particular team over a season are the physical and mental condition of its players, the coaching tactics and strategies employed, stability within the playing group and the organisation, fixture and travel considerations and, of course, the "luck" factor.

I've therefore come up with a slightly different model - one that's three dimensional. I call it a sphere or more properly, the globe. On my Sporting Globe model I have Carlton situated at a latitude of 29 degrees north and a longitude of 33 degrees east which places the Blues in Egypt about adjacent to the Red Sea. Problem is the said sea hasn't parted for thousands of years so while new president Dick Pratt might have a historical connection with the last group that made it across on foot, I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Melbourne on the other hand is situated a little to the north east having passed latitude 30 north and closing in on 35 east. Problem is that the Demons have been wandering around in circles for more than the allocated forty years and still haven't found their way out of the wilderness into the promised land. Still, there's some reason for hope there.

Adelaide have been ready for a while now but they overshot the mark and missed the Jordan River entirely having passed 33 degrees north and 44 east. By the time the season proper starts I expect them to have crossed a different river altogether - the Tigris - and be smack dab in the middle of Baghdad and although they might put up a bit of a fight, they could be in more than a spot of bother by season's end.

I trust that this gives a clearer picture than the one dimensional clock theory which has been shot down by Paul Roos and his band of men at Sydney. I hear what's been said about Sydney's salary cap limit but if there is a difference between Sydney and the others then it could well be justified given the higher cost of living in Sydney c.f. the other capital cities and Geelong.

I'll remind you again about the Member's Information Night of 2002 (remember when we used to have them?).

Most of us will remember that night for the kerfuffle regarding the club's dealings with Shane Woewodin and Stephen Powell ahem… err certain players. But I remember it for another thing and that was the coach's lengthy dissertation on the "clock".

In particular, one of his conclusions was that the Sydney Swans had passed their window of opportunity and they were now in the early morning hours i.e. the worst spot on the clock while Melbourne was in the late afternoon and moving albeit slowly towards early evening and the dawn of opportunity.

Paul Roos had taken over as "caretaker" coach of the Swans and they were freely admitting that this was a time of "transition", feeling the impact of the retirement of players like Tony Lockett, Paul Kelly, Andrew Dunkley and Wayne Schwass. This, from a Jake Niall report in the Age in early 2003:- DROOPING SWANS FACE THE PAIN OF REBUILDING (sorry the link to the Age is now dead)

"The problem is the team. The Swans have one of the weakest playing lists in the competition. The club, once prone to misguided optimism about its chances, has quickly developed a keen sense of realism. Coach Paul Roos, ever an astute reader of the play, has been quick to adopt the "rebuilding" rhetoric and downplay expectations - a spin repeated on Saturday night when the team fell to the hitherto horrible Hawks."

and

"More worrisome, the bottoming-out process - in terms of the list - might not be complete. Skipper Stuart Maxfield and dual best and fairest Paul Williams are both beyond 30, as are Daryn Cresswell and Jason Ball. The demographics of the list suggest that there will be more acute pain before the draft begins to work."

That grim outlook matched what Neale Daniher had predicted at the MIN a few months earlier.

However, as it happened, the Swans felt no acute pain in the ensuing period. In fact they made the finals every year since the end of 2002 and played off in the past two grand finals for one premiership, their first after 72 long years.

I'm hoping we can follow suit an that our run of outs doesn't go past 43, clock or no clock.