Whispering_Jack

I had the same experience quite a few times myself last year - usually happened about three minutes after the siren sounded at the end of a Melbourne match.

This thread is several months old and covers nearly 150 pages in which I have dealt many times with the issue of the health of the players and their reliance on "professional" advice which needs to take into account that these players signed waiver agreements that mentioned the taking of drugs that were, with a few exceptions, not vitamin supplements. That issue is certainly an important one in the context of the debate and one which raises obvious concern for the participants (willing or unwilling, informed or uninformed) but it does not absolve the players from responsibility and sanction which is what I've been addressing in the posts immediately above and which you think is "sad". It was you who stated in your first post today that you "hope the players get off". I believe that would achieve exactly what the spin doctors operating on Essendon's behalf are seeking to achieve by playing the sympathy card and they've managed to get a lot of people, including yourself, hook line and sinker. That's sad.

So was the 16 year old Bulgarian weightlifter. Did she deserve the gold medal more than the one who came second in competition and was clean?

I just received this form the Melbourne Football Club and I think it sums it up well:- Vale Dean Bailey All at the Melbourne Football Club is deeply saddened to hear of the passing of Dean Bailey. The Players, Staff and Directors extend their deepest sympathies to Caron, Mitch and Darcy. Josh Mahoney who was coached by Dean at Port Adelaide and later worked with him at Melbourne said: "Dean's contribution to the game over his life was significant as a player and coach.” “From a personal perspective, Dean had an influence on a lot of the decisions I have made in my life. After first meeting him at Essendon in 2001, he was a major influence in me getting drafted by Port Adelaide, as well as entering coaching with the Melbourne Football Club. “I know I will always remember him as a close mentor and friend, as will all the staff and players who knew him at Melbourne. “His love for the game of AFL was infectious on everyone who came in contact with him. It took him across the country, chasing his dream of coaching and developing people and players. “Bails had a dry sense of humour, and even in the toughest times he was often the man who would break the ice with a quick one liner. “Dean was a committed and devoted family man to wife Caron and sons Mitch and Darcy; our thoughts are with them at this time. Dean was appointed coach of the Melbourne Football Club in 2007. He coached the Demons in 83 matches from 2008-11. Prior to his coaching career, Dean also played 53 matches for Essendon from 1986-92. He started his coaching career with Mt Gravatt in Queensland in 1998-99, before becoming a member of Essendon’s coaching staff in 2000-01. He was part of the Essendon coaching panel, which helped secure the 2000 premiership against Melbourne. Dean then moved to Port Adelaide, where he was involved in its inaugural premiership win over the Brisbane Lions in 2004. He was part of the Power’s coaching staff from 2002-07. More recently, Dean was innovation and strategy coach of Adelaide. Funeral details will be provided once confirmed.

The only perspective one should approach this scandal from is that of every clean athlete who strives to achieve the pinnacle of his or her sport. That is what the world anti doping code is all about. It's about Raelene Boyle who was deprived of up to four Olympic Gold Medals because we had no power to stop drug cheats in the 60s and 70s. It's about the weighlifter who finished second to a 16 year old Bulgarian whose coach was solely responsible for administering prohibited substances to a teenager who was unaware of what she was receiving but still had to be stripped of her gold medal. It's about the purity of sport and about accepting responsibility which is exactly what Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell did when they tested positive last year and accepted with grace their two year suspensions without blaming their coach or (as Shane Warne once famously did) their mother. Australian sport would suffer a massive blow if players injected with illegal substances of the size and scope and in the manner suggested by the ASADA Interim Report walked away without penalty because the means of identifying what they took had been obliterated by employees or agents of their club. Unfortunately, our own club is implicated and also subject to investigation and although, it's clear that a programme (if that's what you would call it) was not sponsored by the club, we have to take the medicine if found to have offended against the WADA Code. There should be no way out for offenders for the sake of those who chose to stay clean and if it were any other way, our sport would quickly become at best a grubby and dirty form of entertainment only with little credibility like the WWE. That's my perspective.

Regrettably, some posters have decided to turn this sad news into an occasion to make unnecessary political comment. These have been either deleted or censored; their subject matter is for another place and time. Please remember and respect the solemnity of the occasion - a man who worked hard for this club has lost his life at far too young an age.

The number of talls available at the pointy end is interesting. I hope whoever we take can stand up during the pre season

Sad news and condolences to his young family. The club has really suffered a belting from this illness in recent years.

You did say you weren't there, didn't you? Apart from Jeremy Howe, the following of those who would spend time up forward weren't playing - Clark, Dawes, Hogan, Bail with next dibs for tall forwards/resting rucks Jamar and Gawn (and I would have either in the ruck instead of Spencer). Viney and JKH were subs who came on too late in the game to have an influence but most here (OD for certain!) would have them and Dean Kent (who played for the Scorpions later in the day with JV, JKH and Bail) playing small forward ahead of Shannon Byrnes. I've covered the rucks we missed and despite Spencer's endeavour, those mentioned would have helped our midfield on the day. Jack Fitzpatrick would have been better as a permanent forward but was needed in the ruck. Our defence was close to our best but Garland and Clisby would have helped out there so I stand by my comments about missing half a team and most of our forward line. That's not an excuse, it's a statement that given we weren't playing for sheep stations, it shouldn't be taken as demoralising for the players. And Roos didn't appear to be doing much tactically to indicate that the scoreboard was all that important to him. I've said elsewhere that it was a poor performance but it isn't the end of the world. I remember us beating Carlton in a practice match by 15 goals some years ago and two weeks later they gave us a flogging. At the end of the day, they had the percentage and the four points - we had zilch. In any event, the AFL does the programming. To suggest we shouldn't take on the best even when we're light on for our best 22 players is a sign of abject weakness. Hopefully, that will soon be a thing of the past.

Do we have any control over who we're scheduled to play against in these matches? How would it look if we requested a "soft" opponent instead of Hawthorn (or if we did that and lost anyway)? Did we know at the time the programme came out that none of Clark, Dawes, Hogan, Garland, Jamar and Gawn were going to be available along with a handful of others who were either injured or rested or given minimal game time? I think a flogging with half a side unavailable against the reigning premiers at close to full strength isn't anything near as disastrous as many would think. Fremantle, who were runners up to Hawthorn were flogged by the Eagles by almost similar proportions but I didn't hear about Ross Lyon sticking a fork in his toaster and I doubt that Paul Roos is losing much sleep either. After all, it was just a practice match.

Good to see you back in town AOB. For the record, do you think there's still a hope under Roos for the trio of Watts, Blease and Strauss who have been so disappointing to date?

I prefer to go with Patrick Smith's view that this is all about how modern cricket is played. The days of gentlemen cricketers is well past and while I note your point about there not being another test or innings to play in this series, I'm sure the mind games will go on when next they confront du Plessis who stonewalled us in Adelaide a year or two ago. That could also include the coming T20 games including the world championships and next years World ODI Cup.

I hate using the word but somehow, our failings have to do with "culture" and a failure to develop enough players who lead by example. I sense that this is the first phase of Paul Roos' plans to change the shape of the club.

I'll do Nicholson.* did not play

Shannon Byrnes kicked 25% of Melbourne's goals yesterday.

According to melbournefc.com.au, there are two open training sessions at Goschs Paddock this coming week:- Wednesday 12 March - 9:30am and Friday 14 March - 9:30am and all other training sessions are closed sessions. Let's hope that some extra tall timber are in evidence and that one or two can play for Casey at the weekend on the way to a berth in round one. Is that too much to ask?

To be clear, the point I was making about Lees was that despite the naivety of what he did, he didn't have the benefit of the same information as the Essendon players and, as a consequence, one can't have any sympathy for them.

It may or may not explain her conduct but I believe Holmes is an Essendon supporter.

Interesting watching the ABC's Offsiders programme today. The two female panelists were Tracy Holmes and Caro and IMO their prim and proper PC denunciation of the Aussie's behaviour towards Faf du Plessis demonstrated their complete ignorance of the mind games involved in cricket's art of sledging. Du Plessis had earlier called the Australians a pack of dogs and questioned their ability to attain reverse-swing in the first innings. The Aussies returned fire by giving du Plessis a barking send-off when he was dismissed and, during his innings taunted him about his ball-tampering charge last year. The ladies thought this was immature and childish. Masters got things in the correct perspective describing the antics as funny. Heaven help the sport if the likes of Wilson and Holmes take control. Anyway, that's it for Aussie test cricket until October when we're due to take on Pakistan in three tests in UAE and then four home tests v India in our summer. I wonder if we'll ever see Harris again post surgery and whether our young gun pace bowlers will be healthy by then. It's a bit like waiting for MFC's talls to get fit.

... and then there are family trusts etc... anyway, James has already been paid in advance for his labours this year so he can push off to France or Switzerland or wherever he's going for his higher education qualifications. Meanwhile, I noticed that the other team he coached in 2013, the Prahran Under 10's still have him down as coach although the list doesn't appear to have been updated for a while.

try here

Yes, Holmes has routinely pushed the mantra about the status of the drugs taken but it's dead wrong and no supporting evidence for that view has ever been produced save the unsubstantiated say so of a man who won't testify despite claiming to have received it from the bowels of ASADA. On the same programme Roy Masters, a much more respected and credible journalist than Holmes said he believed the NRL's recent ruling on sanctions against Cronulla was bad news for the players.

try here

Of course it's not the same - in fact Lees ingested no drugs at all. However, my point is that AFL players have the benefit of better education and provided with far more information. Those in charge deserve punishment and should IMO be banned from the sport for a long time, if not for life but the players don't deserve sympathy or a free pass.

The more I think about the playing of the sympathy card for the Essendon players, the more it riles me. Let's take a different tack on the subject and reprise the Wade Lees case - VFL player Wade Lees cops 18-month ban for importing performance-enhancing drugs. One of the arguments made for Lees was that, as a VFL player who received no education on how to deal with supplements and any other substances which might lead a sportsperson to be charged with anti doping violations, he deserved some consideration. His plea fell on deaf ears. Now consider Lees' AFL counterparts at Essendon who, like all AFL players receive regular advice and education on drug use. Confronted with waiver forms that detail a number of supplements that don't sound like your regular vitamins to me, their education should have alerted them to the potential peril they were facing. Did not one of them take the trouble to check the nature of the substances they were taking? That some of those things had not yet been tested for human consumption or that some were human growth hormones? Sorry, but I have no sympathy for these clowns - they deserve what should be coming to them and any whitewash by officialdom of this sordid affair would be absolutely reprehensible and an insult to those athletes and officials worldwide who strive to keep the sport clean.