Hellfire Dub

Disregarding recent events, I'm glad our team has had guys like Petracca (and Nibbler) driving standards. His ambition has been a great asset to us until the fiasco around his injury. He's clearly the type of person who's pushed himself to the limits of his potential with the overseas training camps etc. Look at how far he's come. I remember when I first started reading Demonland and people thought he was pudgy and heavy and falling far short of expectations from his high draft position. I think his humility around the Norm Smith was knowing that his was an outstanding performance, but it was within a shared team result. So the brand thing and his earnings are a selfish motivation, but to be a professional athletes requires a certain selfishness and ruthlessness. An ambition and determination to improve and win. By contrast we can all name plenty of other players that were happy enough to turn up and go through the motions. I've never got that sense from him in any game I've seen him play. The injury and recovery would have caused the sudden realisation of his mortality and the short duration of his precarious career. He's also witnessed Gussy's career cruelly and unjustly ended. That must have driven him to maximise his income in his last few playing years. He's messed that up really badly unfortunately. It will have burned younger players, and those on the periphery and not earning his level of income. That's going to cause resentment. There's also an associated mental health issue after the trauma that may explain his rash behaviour. I'm totally prepared to overlook that aspect. We're humans and fallible and vulnerable and actions taken in dark moments can't be explained or justified when someone is well again. The guy is young and ambitious and wants to win premierships. Until this season he's believed that was possible with us. And he's right, it should be possible with us. So even though I doubt he'll be a Demon beyond 2025, I truly hope his concerns and recommendations are acted upon. He's got to have seen or heard of some unprofessional and concerning behaviours and shenanigans. Most of us regularly hear rumours and innuendo about our club and I've no idea whether it's justified, nor whether it's true of only us or of all AFL teams. I don't see our club management as proactive or exemplary. We've been in the wilderness forever without a home base near Melbourne as an example. I hear a lot of real nonsense management speak and not just the strategic post game interview where the same nothings are repeated ad nauseum. We need to be better and do better. There were excuses in some of the other years, but lots of the stuff this year was inexcusable. Poor football, poor effort, poor attitude, poor gameplan, poor management, poor communication. I'm sure Trac will have raised some of these things. Let's hope it brings about some change for the better. And more exciting football with plentiful goals for us, more finals, more Norm Smith medals, and more flags.

How many goals would be kick for us next season if we bomb it long and slow and high into the big defenders in the goal square?

I doubt his manager would dump him. They'd be taking a percentage of his million plus each season.

Thanks, I just wanted your cold numerical analysis. Like most people here I'm trying to figure out what all this means for us in football outcomes. Your optimism is appreciated today after a lot of negative news and is keeping the MFCSS at bay. I think we could and should play finals next year. That should be our minimum goal. I doubt CP5 will be anything like his best next year and I don't expect he'll play till the latter half at least. The long break might be helpful and it's largely dependant on injuries and trading in some good replacements. Some of the new kids are going well, but there are quite a few gaps opening up on the list. I hope we have the good trading and drafting period that we need.

Ah that's fair and exactly as expected. I'm not sure what odds you'd get on a Melbourne premiership in 2025 but you're proving my point perfectly. You often say something along the lines of "bookies know best" because they're not charities. With all the issues around Trac, Clarry, gus forced to retire, kozzy unhappy, the forbidden topic, nibbler leaving, petty playing forward, low goal scoring, being run over on turnovers etc. it's almost certain that we won't win a grand final. Far more likely we'll end up either just scraping finals or roughly where we are now. Your redemption dream is a massive long shot unfortunately and that's reflected in the odds. And if we don't improve it plays perfectly into Trac's hands. Justification for him to say nothings changed, we're unprofessional and the media will say it's fair for him to go elsewhere.

The story writes itself: Dees have a cracking preseason. The Max, Jack, tracc and clarry band gets back together. The young Turks (JVR, mcvee, Windsor, Kolt, disco and pick 5) make their own music. The dees win the flag. Tracc wins the Norm Smith. Redemption reigns. Traccs 'reach' goes nuclear. This stuff becoming fact. I don't bet, but my understanding is the odds accumulate for each event, making the outcome less likely? I know the post is fanciful and I appreciate your enthusiasm and all your hard work. Like you I'm celebrating that Trac remains for now and hope we go really well next year, even all the way to a glorious Flag with real fans there to celebrate. As for this potential wager, unfortunately for all of us I think it's unfair and I'd just be taking your money. I was asking yesterday, what safeguards are there for the team if any player takes the proverbial and gives a half @55ed effort or exaggerates some real or concocted injury that forces them to sit on the sidelines for most of the year? Especially one on $1.7m or thereabouts? I'm glad he's back but I'm genuinely concerned about his physical and mental readiness to play AFL in a few months time.

Nothing wrong with being optimistic. I love your optimism despite everything and I really hope you're right. I'd really love you too be right, but I fear we might be headed for another 2019 style rough year. Would you be confident enough to say if you're right, I'll pay for your grand final ticket and if it doesn't happen then you'd pay my Redlegs membership 2026?

Did you say similar optimistic things after 22 and 23? As a betting man, what odds would you give on this outcome eventuating?

Yeah that's a concern I share Old Dee. He could be in the bench or in rehab for a lot of the season

That's exactly the bit the jumped out for me. As in I'm committed to the red and the blue... It's what he didn't say such as: until the trade period/until end of 2025/on the proviso that we trade out trouble makers/change coach etc

What would be an issue that divides players and causes some to want to leave? Could it be the forbidden topic and future repercussions for players caught up in it? Or is it simply the restrictive style of dour football that will consign players to obscurity and mediocrity like Saint Kilda?

Given the brand stuff is going so well he could play for less money and free up salary cap for better trade ins

Okay I have two hypothetical questions that relate to this Trac situation: Can an AFL player retire to end a contract then take a year off and be signed by another team? What happens if a marquee player on big dollars decides to take the P1,55 for a year and sit on their backside and barely try in the AFL or VFL side? Are there performance clauses that can reduce their entitlements etc?

14th Home and Away. Even the usual apologists are very quiet or starting to agree that we're failing to be acceptable, let alone exemplary. Negative "puke football" that fans don't want to watch and good players want to play. And it doesn't even win us home and away games anymore. Not to mention that we didn't even get to bomb out of finals without firing shots. At least 3 of our best footballers going or wanting to leave (that we know if so far). No discernible progress on a home base. Disastrous communications. The issues we can't talk about. Culture or questionably Sub-par Culture? Memberships and sponsors will start deserting. I wish there were some positives bar a few promising young kids. If we don't need a full review and changes already based on the above, then how bad does it need to get?

As if the uncontested marks and free possessions we gave them, or the many missed tackles weren't bad enough, we kept kicking it straight to them in the centre of the ground. They kept running up and scoring from our turnovers.

Great post, thanks for sharing it. Anyone who loves the club should be willing to examine it honestly and appraise them as highly paid professionals. The club obviously won't fire him, but we're trending downwards so he'll damage his goodwill, legacy and career prospects if this continues. He should consider bowing out with his head held high and the gratitude of demon's fans before it gets really bad. That's the part of your post I disagree with. He has had enough time to learn and has had enough years and chances for someone who is so well paid in such a privileged position. He's a decent bloke who led us to a flag, but we need new leadership and vision to improve. He was the man.

Haha I love this! You wish him all the best for the future except for another flag! Exactly how I feel about him. He was a selfish Dogga without loyalty. He was and still is overrated. He can be good sometimes, but never consistently. It's clear in some games he can't be bothered his @rse. Nothing but an oppo player to me now too especially after his smarminess in the whippings they handed us this year. I wish him all the best for a career of mediocrity and underachieving because he's lazy and doesn't feel like it. Sorta like after a bad breakup in youthful days with somebody who's ditched you. I don't want anything terrible happen to him, just for him to totally go to seed and get bald and fat and not be really successful and happy. Then whenever you bump into him you can see that he's full of regrets about ditching the best team and fans and missing the good times and his prime that have now past him by. Delicious Schadenfreude, hopefully he meets us wearing a premiers beanie, 2025 or 2026 or thereabouts in the near future. Sooner than Slagmantle anyway.

Well said Dazzle. Nibbler should be kicking more goals too. All our forwards and midfields should in reality be scoring more goals. But unfortunately that simple premise of football had never really been the highest priority from the coaching staff. Instead we're obsessed with keeping other teams to the minimum and grinding out games. I know people say we don't have a lot of choice, but what forward would enjoy playing our painful BRAND that burns the eyes and sears the skin? It's not attractive to watch and it would be horrible to play. No good forward would want to sign up for it. We never really played the ball into BBB properly. We bombed it in high and long on top of three forwards leaping into each other and every tall defender in a pack. Or else we play it safe and long out wide and lock it there amidst congestion, contest and repeat stoppages. I'm being facetious, but in a perverse way maybe Goody likes having no option but to shove natural defenders up forward so we can be even more defensive. Except for Fritsch. That's why we get players with strict roles that prioritise chasing like Spargo and Chandler and Nibbler. Defence is fine and it wins flags and it's good to contest and to keep other teams to really low scores. As long as we always score at least one more point than the other team. Or six more

Thanks for the report and the uplifting news items WCW. On Buck's point, what are people's thoughts about BBB working with the forward lines next year?

There wouldn't have been a big queue of teams looking to sign Petty this year unfortunately. I hope he'll get back to his best in defence

It makes for difficult reading and then at the end he drops in the snow cliche. Ugh

This is good. I've read many well composed counter arguments in this thread. It helps to revive the memory and give a little bit of context to some of the challenges of other years. Overall though I would still welcome a change although I accept it is unlikely. The points about the records of other coaches are interesting. I'm delighted if all other teams have coaches with terrible records of mediocrity and near misses. They're welcome to them and to perpetuating their tenure. This is professional sport where coaches and players are paid for their skill and expertise in football. As professionals our club should aim for perfection and then whatever the result they (and we) can be satisfied that they've done their best. Looking at the record I don't think it's the best possible outcome and it seems to be deteriorating. Lots of you are happy to persist owing to the flag. That's just resting on laurels and not acceptable for professional sportspeople. The rest of the league has clearly moved on from 2021. The optimism, blind faith and loyalty are all good qualities of many of you fellow Demons, as is the quality of respectful debate we have here. Nevertheless recent months have not been enjoyable and we can all admit that whatever the causes the statistics are damning. I'll say the following with that in mind:f If I was the respected, popular and well regarded (loved by many) Simon Goodwin I'd wonder if it was better to leave on his own terms with a flag and a record he can be proud of whilst the team still has reasonable prospects. Or should he stay on for two more years and try to learn a style of football and tactics that aren't natural to him. The gamble for him is in balancing his livelihood with his legacy. We can mostly agree that we're starting to witness a decline, so if we drop to the lowest rungs of the ladder in two years then he will be held responsible for the parlous state of the club and he'll suffer an ignominious exit.

Most people are assuming Petracca will be back and Oliver magically sorts out whatever it is he has going on (I've heard lots of rumours but am genuinely unsure) and gets back to his best. If those two assumptions are false and the club chickens out of coaching changes, then it could be a harder season than this one was without the strong wins at the start.

Even before this year's woes, our star midfielders have long been guilty of lofting their hard won ball high and aimlessly into our forward line. Smash it on the boot and get it forward, anywhere will do. Perfect for intercepting defenders to run it back at us. And Repeat. For years we've over used the unnecessary (and often hospital) handpass to a team mate about to get smashed or pinged for HTB. There's also been an obsession with territorial gain of holding it in our forward 50, and long kicks to the pocket without scoreboard gain. All of these things are laborious and taxing and they're all coaching directions or else they've been tolerated by the coaching staff. The contest and tackling emphasis must be really gruelling on guys like Viney and lots of the team are really showing wear and tear this season so that 21 style can't be sustained forever. Nor should it be as the running waves just break through it. It's not all bad though as this season lots of the youngsters (plus Tmac sometimes and returned Melk) seem to be lowering the eyes and looking sideways or shorter for better options. Mcvee has shown silky skills and bowser gets caught sometimes but he dinks some nice passes as does Kozzy.

SG has obviously tried this season to change to a faster running and kicking style. Then due to injuries/outs and lack of skills has reverted to some sort of horrible mishmash that is not a style at all. On the bad days it's a putrid form of football that's slow, laborious, predictable, easy to defend and easier to overrun. He obviously wants to change up, but I don't think he knows how and the really poor effort suggests lots of players have lost faith in "the brand" and the coach. The players don't know what they're doing any more. It's not great contest and we're not even getting that frustrating territorial dominance any more. I'm sure lots of you were sickened listening to BT saying that we hadn't had a forward 50 entry in the first quarter. So we're left in limbo with the worst of all worlds. Like another poster said, I'd hate to be drafted into such a rigorous negative, restrictive defensive minded system. Freedom and creativity is discouraged and that was fine when midfield and defensive lines were strong enough to limit teams to 60 points per game. When waves of half backs blast through our midfield our defence is now regularly under siege. So we're now seeing desperate panicked clearances, mistakes and hack kicks and hospital hand passes. If Ugle Hagan could kick last week I think I counted seven or eight goals he could have kicked by himself. That would have been really ugly. People who say he's unlikely to go anywhere are probably right, but I was really annoyed when his tenure was extended in the first place so I'll be more unhappy if that plan is stubbornly adhered to and we keep sliding. So how much of these type of uncompetitive losses should we tolerate? They're not the Melbourne brand that he talks about. How many chances should someone get to learn and improve and how often should we reward mediocrity and failure? I don't care about top four except for home finals and the double chance. Finals and flags are what counts. This year is another failure and few of us are really confident about 2025. I also don't care that he's mates with them and they like him. That's fine if we're winning and competitive, but it's harder for someone in that position to make tough calls required to lead. That closeness might be why we see the same minimal weekly changes and bizarre favouring of certain players and banishment of others. Maybe a close mate is not what's needed to fire up players before the first bounce and maybe it's harder to take advice and guidance from a friend? A change will come eventually so why wait? Does it require the embarassment of wooden spoons across our backsides for people to change their minds? That would be more damaging for the club and fanbase than a change of coaches. Last week was horrible as was West Coast, Freo x 2, Collingwood and I hate seeing us so uncompetitive and directionless.