1964_2

36 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Can we start another rumour that Andrew Brayshaw is missing his parents and brother and wants to come to Melb? 

Just need Ralph on the case and it will be seen as fact.

Jon can we exchange a couple more board emails for you to run with this? 

4 minutes ago, Redleg said:

And we should ask for him. Start at the top. Also and most importantly, would we ask for him if he hasn't indicated he would be willing to come?

Remember Gus and Jacko have the same manager and maybe Gus has asked his brother would he be willing to come over and play for the Dees.

With Jacko willing to go home, it sets up a scenario where Freo might be hard pressed to say we should let Jacko go home, but they won't do the same.

Some interesting times ahead.

While ordinarily I would say Andrew is no chance to come to us, the Jacko situation puts a different spin on it, "IF" Andrew is on board with the idea.

Maybe we deliberately haven’t matched Freo’s offer because we are comfortable with the outcome of what we would get in return?

so much speculation:- easily got another 200 pages of this thread to go 

23 minutes ago, BDA said:

I'd be shocked and delighted if we got 2 top 5 picks. Or a top 5 player. Would Darcy be interested in coming back to Victoria I wonder?

If dogga insists on leaving (i don't know how adamant he is) then we'll have to accept what we get. Freo's current and future first is probably the deal. I'd be confident JT will have a real player with one of the picks. Might not be the deal we would ideally like but if he's out of contract what choice do we have. All depends whether Jackson cares if we're looked after in the deal. You'd hope after we've invested in him he'd do the right thing by us

 

Given jacko has publicly stated many times that he prefers ruck to forward (with the standard I will play where the coach puts me disclaimer), I be asking questions if I was Darcy as to where he fits in to future plans! 

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Didn't say it would happen, just a rumour that MFC has indicated to Freo that's what they'll be asking for.

Can we start another rumour that Andrew Brayshaw is missing his parents and brother and wants to come to Melb? 

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

This is my take on the Jacko situation.

Luke would obviously be happy to be home and if he was, he wants to play with the club he barracked for and his family is connected with. It doesn’t hurt that they are now successful. He is happy to return home, if both clubs can do a fair deal. If not, most likely he will stay with us for another 2 years and see where it’s at then.

I don’t think he is driving this or demanding to leave, but rather Freo have seen the opportunity to get him.

We hold the cards and if no deal can be done to our satisfaction, I am sure Luke will sign on for 2 more years.

I am pretty confident Freo have driven this, knowing they have a willing participant, in the right circumstances.

I think he is happy to stay for a couple of years at least, but would also be happy to return home and play with Freo and Freo probably know exactly that. He may have simply said "yes if you can get me I will come, if not I stay a Dee." 

So Mr. Bell, you make us happy or he stays, end of story.

PS: Personally, I hope if he does go, players are involved, as picks are speculative and take time to turn into regular players in your best 22, if at all.

Agree with you. This position works long term for jacko & his manager as well. Ie if he stays, has 2 more strong years, Freo know they have to pay up to get him, because he is not as desperate to come home as say a Tim Kelly was.

8 hours ago, CYB said:

We need a top 5 pick for LJ and and given his potential another late first round or early 2nd. The points worth is not an appropriate conparison as we would most likely use the first pick to chase the best KPF available and they go early. The 2nd pick would probably look at a ruck or KPD.

As much as I’d hate to lose Brayshaw, and I don’t think he’d leave, he is in fact excess to our needs. We can cover for him at HB and on the defensive wing and in the midfield. He would also demand a 1st round pick (mid to late).

Having 2-3 1st round picks would be phenomenally good for us and allow us to restock our lists with quality players and be relevant and playing finals for the next decade.

It is not easy to build a list where the core players are coming into their peak years at the same time. We have done that. Now is not the time to build for the future. Now is the time to capitalise and win flags. This means we need to prioritise a ready made KF, and ruck depth ready to have an impact in 2023. Not draft picks, who will have an impact in 3-5 years time, when our best players have already peaked. 
 

12 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Maybe but I recall most of his kicks were 20 m out & mainly directly in front.

I still maintain that our fwd line for most of this year & 2 thirds of last year has been pretty shambolic.

 

Forward line not performing :- No arguments from me. 

Doesn’t mean it’s because of GS. And your reasons for why he shouldn’t be coach are clearly wrong (no experience as a forward) 

If his kicks were from 20m out he clearly had some strong forward craft to get shots on goal from the best positions. 

1 hour ago, 1964_2 said:

Might need to do a bit more research there cranky. 141 goals, from 204 games. Pretty sure he didn’t score all of them from the ruck! Was an extremely accurate set shot as well. 

68% conversion. 141 goals, 66 behinds. Be in the top tier conversion of all time. 

55 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Both Max and Jacko played last week and it didn't help Brown though.

Yes, but just be nice to see what mainly Max forward, rather than mainly Jacko forward looks like 

14 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Melksham in is a frustrating one, but tbh I'm more worried about us continuing to ride one out of form tall forward.

 

Unless Max plays mainly forward 

3 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

This is like the Demonlanders potting Troy Chaplin as a poor defensive coach 

Always got to someone to blame doesn’t there. 

Watch these same whingers turn over the top positive when we hit form

4 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

I'm not bagging him just thinking that u probably need to have been a fwd to coach the fwd line.

Would u appoint Nev Jetta or Nat Jones as ruck coach ?

The fact that individual players have done well is good but as a group it still aint working.

The fwds lead to the same place & get in each others way. Spargo pressures well but his crumbing is poor. If nobody marks it then the opposition sweeps it away easily.

When we do well & win as in the GF its because of ruck & midfield dominance & our defence being on top, its rarely due to our fwd line.

Might need to do a bit more research there cranky. 141 goals, from 204 games. Pretty sure he didn’t score all of them from the ruck! Was an extremely accurate set shot as well. 

8 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Here we go again with the Andy Brayshaw nonsense. Gus isn't going to hold out until the Jackson trade is finalised before making his decision. The nomination of free agents occurs prior to trade week. 

As a club, we've always been about getting deals finalised early, and then moving on to the next deal. Those thinking we'll get 2 top 5 picks are also delusional. Cerra had more runs on the board than Jackson, and was only worth 1 top 5 pick.

Our starting point will more likely be 1 top 10 pick,  a 1st round pick (this year or future) and a fringe player like Meek. IMO, that would be a good result for us,

Defeatist attitude.

A few demons supporters who can’t handle the fact they now barrack for a successful team/club, might need to switch over to North, and enjoy another 10 years of depressing re-builds

31 minutes ago, DubDee said:

How do you reckon Finlayson is sleeping at the moment?

Gawn then Jackson.

We just need to make sure Dixon doesn't injury us.  Maybe start LJ and leave Max for Dixon?

Would love to see how Max 85% at CHF, Jacko 85% ruck would work 

1 hour ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

We are the premiers and second on the ladder. If we put this team against a top four side it would be tough

However, if we haven’t got the depth to beat a bottom half side - we are in trouble!

Only trouble is Port are effectively playing like a top 4 side. 8W, 3L the last 11 weeks, after dropping their first 5. The 3 losses the last 11 weeks being cats, tigers, Freo. 

We will have to be near our best to beat them. 

Petty + Oliver out = $2.52 for Port is probably good value. 
 

53 minutes ago, CYB said:

If Petty has COVID, we should expect more cases  between now and game day. You can only laugh at the timing. 

All teams likely to be hit with covid next few weeks

1 hour ago, Sideshow Bob said:

2 seems to be the theme doesn't it

options :

luke 2 years

luke and gus sign 

or

2 debuts - Bill Laurie and JVR????

Or Fritta burnt 2 team-mates, and nailed one from the boundary (sorry, couldn’t help myself) 

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

I used the word ‘pivot’ deliberately. It’s not that it is used as a significant factor - for a few weeks it is. My issue is that whatever critique is made on something else, the pivot to loading as the reason/answer to that critique is dismissing and quite frustrating.

I will put it another way; loading is like sport in general. Sport doesn’t create character - it reveals it, in the same way that loading doesn’t create functional issues, they reveal them.

Loading has impacted our fortunes, of course it has, but it has also revealed underlying issues that were there before around connection and pressure.

And to have those concerns ameliorated with the mention of loading is getting harder to listen to.

That’s a fair comment. So what you are saying, is even if loading fixes some of the weaknesses, when we are back running on top of the ground :- in the interim why not also try and address some of the issues that have been exposed?(potentially through loading fatigue)

I think the frustrating and challenging part for supporters, is seeing us make the same mistakes without change. The difficult part is we don’t know which of these challenges the FD are comfortable to wear in the short term, because they have confidence that they won’t be there when we are at our best. 
 

1 hour ago, Its Time for Back to Back said:

Agree.  Clearances is one aspect of the game that shouldn't be as affected by loading as they start from a stop in play. As others have said all top teams are probably loading anyway. Up to round 16 we are a fair way behind last year's performance and they clearly need work to get back to where we were.

Type                         Ranking 2022   2021 

Centre Clearances      13th                 7th

Stoppage clearances    7th                5th

Overall clearances        10th               4th

We are behind our main competitors on clearances Lions 4th, Cats 5th and Dockers 6th. 

We are also 11th for Hitout wins percentage behind main competitors Cats, Lions, Dockers. Against the Cats we won hitouts 49 to 36 but still lost clearances by a whopping -18, 36 to 54. They doubled us in centre clearances 16 to 8 and stoppages 38 to 28. It goes a long way to explaining the loss irrespective of loading. 

Here's a stark stat from OTC. Trac and Clarry have delivered the ball i50 46 times in the past 5 weeks for a total of 2 marks. Trac 28 times for 2, Clarry 18 for "0"!! I don't have any stats to compare these to but it can't be good. 

All our forwards are also down on last year. Ben Brown has won 7 of 45 contests, I read somewhere that he's won 1 of 21 one on ones. He's played the same amount of games as the whole of last year 13, but isn't terribly off on goals 21 to 25 last year. According to OTC Jackson is the number one marking forward in the Comp yet he's only kicked 8 goals for the year. Kossie has kicked 20 at 1.3, last year was 40 in 25 games at av 1.6, Spargo 6 at 0.4, last year 18 at av 0.7, Fritsch 34 at 2.1, last year 59 at 2.5. 

  This all seems mostly fixable. I don't know how you fix out of form players before it's too late but they seem to lay it on and off for clearances. It was a worry they didn't fix it against the Cats but far from panic stations just yet. 

Don’t have any stats to back this up, but be interested to see if opposition teams are sharking Max’s hitouts better than last year. 

There have been many games when Max is dominating hit outs but it doesn’t appear to translate to clearances. 

Trac & Clarry had just about their best games for the year when Weid, and M.Brown were ruck. Viney was great that game also, and we won the clearances.

Does Max try and do too much, when he is dominating hitouts? Rather than just playing the percentages and letting our champion midfielders win the contested ball? Don’t know ruck craft well enough to have the answer. But be interested in other views? 
 

1 minute ago, CYB said:

If it was $500k to the Dees wouldn’t even batter an eye but if the ask is 7-8 hungy , then it’s a no for someone who is 36.

I wonder if we pickup the phone and say why don’t you come to your home club and help em win a flag. That has to knock 50-100k off the asking price doesn’t it?

 

Jesinta be the key :- does she want to hit the ground running with her agency while buddy is still playing, in the key football state 

6 minutes ago, Tony Tea said:

Buddy was a Dees fan and even during his time at Hawthorn and Sydney he secretly barracked for Melbourne. Or so I heard.

Fairytale finish to win a flag for his fav team :- get it done 

9 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Would have him in a second. Sadly I can’t see how we can afford it and I also don’t think he would want to uproot his family for 1-2 years. 
 

Be able to afford him if we lose Jacko 

8 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

That would be the same simple simon who has coached the club to 35 wins out of the last 43 games including the premiership, okay Einstein. Now there are areas of the game that most likely do require a bit of the tweak, but there is no need to bag him.

It feels like a % of supporters are resigned to it only being a matter of time before Goody turns into Mark Neeld, and the club needs to go through another lengthy rebuild.

I knew “expectation” and “dealing with success” was something players/teams have to adjust to :- but wasn’t aware it’s something supporters go through. 
 

2 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

And you like so many with blind hope seem unable to separate observations on current form from the team in general.

We have a great team - a premiership winning team, with game breaking stars, good young players, a once rock solid system, and collective mindset and buy-in. I love this team.

But at the moment (and for large parts of the year if we are honest), it's not been functioning as it should.

We managed to stack wins against teams we now know are not challengers.

When we've met those at the top, particularly Freo and Geelong, we've failed pretty emphatically so far. You'll call out a range of excuses no doubt, mostly speculative and unconfirmed ideas such as loading, keeping our cards close to our chest or that we led during the game or were 'within a kick' (if only Pickett kicked the goal you say....what about the 8 gettable' set shots Geelong missed? If behinds are an excuse for us they are then equally a reason for them to claim dominance despite scoreboard)

We're still a good team and as I said, we can figure it out. But this current iteration isn't winning the flag. It's an inescapable conclusion for anyone who even tries to watch objectively and pays opposition teams the respect they deserve. 

I see the things you and others are seeing and discussing. Poor inside 50 entries, forwards out of form, small brigade struggling to kick goals and get more than 5-10 possessions (Spargo, Kosy, ANB) etc etc.

But I ask myself why are Goody, Yze and co sticking to the plan, and largely backing in the personnel? Is it because, after spending their full week analysing things, and putting plans together they can’t see the “obvious” things that people on Demonland can?  Or is it because they feel like they have a good handle on the reasons why we are playing the way we currently are, and where we will get to? 

Just 2 weeks ago, after the Lions victory, the assessment was we can’t and won’t be beaten by anyone when playing in that manner. Now suddenly the world has come to an end, because apparently you need to be able to beat the cats in Geel to win the flag. The swings are reflective of a severe case of Bipolar. 
 

PS. You forgot to add, carrying 2 ruckman clearly not recovered from injury in the list of excuses above. 

5 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Wouldn't waste my breath mate - there are so many on here who know what they see but are in denial, clinging to last year's dip and just assuming history will repeat itself

Beggars belief how any honest, reality-entrenched supporter could watch us over the last 6 weeks and think we'll go anywhere close unless something changes forward of the ball.

In case it isn't clear:

-our 3 starting small forwards are collectively averaging 1.9 goals a game. Spargo has 6 for the year. ANB 4. A commentator in the GC game on the weekend commented that Nick Holman has 'only' 12 goals for the year in a half forward role. That's how low the bar is - and they're 50% away from reaching it.

-Fritsch is consistently taking the best medium/tall defender whilst we insist on dumping it on his head in the pocket. He's done well to kick as many as he has and he's well justified imo in getting selfish when he gets the opportunity, given the scoring woes of his colleagues and his ability to Fluke goals when within range

-Ben Brown is consistently playing against 3 tall defenders and/or a floating ruckman on the wing. He doesn't spend much time near goal which is bizarre given his underrated creative ability and ability to draw a free kick 

-the last two weeks Trac has kicked 20-30% of our score. Resting forward perhaps but we then miss our most game breaking mid. Robbing P to pay P. 

-more generally, harmes and Gawn having productive goalkicking years has spared the forward line's blushes. In my view if we're relying on midfield and ruckman goals in finals we'll be in trouble 

-Tom Mac last year averaged more goal assists than anyone else in the side. Including petracca. People have always slept on Tom's ability to mark on the wing, find a target, or ride a tackle deep 50 to dish off a handball as a big senior body. He also kicked 33 for the season in 2021. We've no one who can replace this output and this is compounding, contributing to and combining with the issues above. 

-think very clearly about the shots at goal we had and conceded In the Freo and Geelong games in particular. We have had an absolute dearth of easy shots within 35m in the middle section of the field. Geelong had by my count >6 on the weekend and we were lucky they missed so many. At the same time, we were only close through trac hitting running goals, brown slotting unlikely goals from the pocket, and a Fritsch shot from 55. The system is not generating the shots we want or restricting it in others.

If we're honest with ourselves, it's pretty inarguable. But many can't bear to admit it so they reach for ridiculous explanations - loading, extenuating circumstances, mirroring last year, faith in the coaches, the fact we won in a canter last year, the general vibe of things, the shape of the ground, the weather, the short break, the fact we're everyone's grand final, 'keeping our powder dry' (takes the cake, my favourite), Lloyd hating Melbourne, the colour of the sky and generally anything that can conceivably have a negative connotation. We can all follow footy in our own way - I choose not to be deluded. 

 

I'm not saying things can't change, but I really don't see where it's going to come from. Debuting JVR/Laurie etc might be nice and I could foresee JVR playing Tom's role as he's all heart, but expecting Tom's level of output from him at the pointy end is a big ask. 

Reading this post you would assume the team you are discussing is towards the bottom of the table, rather than equal top. 

Being a below average football team for over a decade has clearly resulted in some severe psychological damage for many of our supporters.