FlashInThePan

I totally agree @Action Jackson and @FarNorthernD Langdon was an absolute steal. I do still wish people would stop evaluating individual trades though. There is no silverware available for the best individual deal. We trade to put together a list which, in its entirety, will win a flag.

 Individual trades like Lever or Langdon may look like overs or unders on their own but it absolutely doesn’t matter if it contributes to building a team that wins a flag.

i understand, when there is no silverware in the cabinet that supporters will evaluate the trades as though they are an end in themselves but now that we have at least one flag from all that trading I think we can look at the work in its entirety and evaluate the list that is currently in place, It’s cost is irrelevant. Every team spends as close as possible to its TPP. Every team uses all its picks every year (and sometimes more). There is no prize for saving $100k or moving up or down the order if it doesn’t get you another piece in the premiership team puzzle.

40 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

I thought that JVR was 194cm (Swarta size) for a start and possibly with some growth in the tank. Surely they can get the minor details right.

Yeah, that struck me also. I have now  seen him variously reported as 193,194 and 195cm. Let’s make sure we get the tape measure out when he starts preseason.

4 hours ago, Watson11 said:

Max said much the same re analysis in his article today in the age. He bemoaned the lack of understanding the media have of the modern game and how he can’t watch afl because of it.

I think Goody is different to the intellectually curious coaches and managers you allude to. I may be mistaken. In my view, Goody is more a “manager” type.  I don’t see it in Hardwick either. But they both stuck with a sound basic strategy, built lists to execute it, and got the culture right to perform. It’s such a lesson for other clubs that it usually takes time for a list to develop to execute a strategy. What strategy works for list A won’t for list B. Burgo talks about this a lot in soccer on his podcasts where the difference between the physicality of the press strategy requires completely different players to the possession based strategy’s.  There are similarities in AFL but not as pronounced.

As Goody has the right people around him now it doesn’t matter if he is brilliant or not. His limitations showed when he stuck to some flawed tactics for long periods of time that other coaches could easily exploit, especially when the pressure was on, and he clearly didn’t have the right people around him to point out the issues. The entire thread about whether he was the right guy was after his experimental strategy was ripped apart by Clarko and Hawthorn. Richo was the master of exploiting the holes on Goodys gameplan and was a great addition for us, Yze fixed Goody’s “win contested ball at all cost” stoppage strategy, and Choco in my view likely kept coaches and players on their toes in a way that didn’t seem to happen from 2017-2020 when we always seemed to get ahead of ourselves or not handle expectations. 2021 was all about Goody managing all of these people and the players and making it work.

I really don’t think Beveridge should be mentioned in that elite coaching group either.  His “genius” to handball out of stoppages and hit form for 4 weeks in September 2016 has resulted in a 5 year leave pass and in him being credited as tactically brilliant whenever the dogs have success, but never criticised for their failures. And some of their failures are all on him, like their lack of midfield defensive running, flawed defensive work at stoppages, a defence that is terrible 1 on 1, and the result being a flawed strategy where they can leak goals (like 16 in 28 minutes of playing time in a GF). His strategy is flawed yet he is credited with being a genius. That makes no sense.

The really elite coaches all have been first with a new point of strategic difference, and built unbelievable cultures and lists to execute it and created sustained success for long periods. Roos turned the game on its head tactically and won a flag that no one believed was possible, using systems imported from US basketball that even the AFL CEO didn’t understand.  He broke a longer drought than ours, and put in place a bloods culture that still remains. Clarko moneyballed the AFL with elite kicks and got 4 flags from it in 8 years. But it wouldn’t have worked without the culture.

Leigh Matthews was different in that it was more about culture and psychology. But he’s a 4 times premiership coach, and if you listen to him on dynasties it is no less impressive than what clarko did.

Goody will be seen alongside these revered coaches if the culture and success is sustained.  Worsfold built the Eagles from a rabble in 2000 and 2001 to a flag in 5 years, but their culture sucked and he didn’t get what he could of out of that list.

I don’t think we will be a one hit wonder but only time will tell.  If we only have 1 flag to show by 2025 Goody will always be respected for 2021 but seen more like a Worsfold or Chris Scott than Matthews or Clarko.  I’d prefer he is a future AFL Hall of Fame legend alongside Norm Smith.

 

I don’t think the Brisbane lions team can be considered on the same level as the other dynasties. The salary cap benefits and other AFL assistance measures they had let them put together and maintain their list.

 Sydney also has a raft of financial benefits but it was such a blue collar list you would be really stretching to credit their success to anything other than tactics and culture.

28 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Non-premiership-winning coaches to experiment with old fashioned wingers who run up and down the flanks all day.

Same coaches to experiment with new fangled ruckmen who are skilled enough to double as athletic ballhandling midfielders in the same contests in which they are beanpoles winning tapouts.

Same coaches to try out players on their lists who are too tall to be small forwards and too short and light to be KPF, to find one who is fast on the lead, with good hands overhead and quick reflexes. Lists will be exhaustively turned over trying to find this player.

Interestingly that article explicitly calls out that clubs will not try to copy the approach of the grand final teams -Unlike every other year. Like so many SEN bold statements it is based on absolutely nothing.

We have definitely shown a different way to get the job done. I’m not going to go as far as to say teams will try to find these exact players types but they will be looking at how to both copy and breakdown our defensive structure.

Yeah, an amazing result. JVR and Howes! Presumably we will also pick up Taj with our last pick. Great result.

19 hours ago, Skuit said:

The idea of playing that Greatest Showman 'This is Me' song for a bunch of young male footballers as a seasonal-theme, by what is essentially a young male coach - including on grand final day - and it having any impact on their motivation to perform is so far-fetched and ridiculous to me that I can only imagine this is some sort of grand post-flag [censored]-take cooked up by Goodwin and the players and delivered with admirable Academy-worthy straight-faces.

Like, seriously? On each side of that scenario, my estimation of Goody either plummets or sky-rockets. It's not about the subject, just the notion that such cheesy lyrics and music could possibly inspire and be promoted by the demographic. Let's not forget the five years of preparation to get to this current point and the off-season buy-in from the players. I doubt the song is related at all, and I'm sure would have been met with mega eye-rolls from a millennial generation. 

Wow Skuit, you are hard. I have no problem seeing how a theme like that could motivate and galvanise a group that needs to believe in itself to break out of a narrative that casts them as unreliable losers. Maybe I'm just soft

Great interview and so interesting to hear ‘post premiership’ Goody speak. He has a very different, more relaxed style. It must be so empowering for him to have achieved the ultimate success. Taking a team from zero to premiership puts him in the elite AFL coaches category.

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

It is amazing the exodus of these people once we got to the mountain top.

Pretty much confirming they were trolls.

You’re right. I have been spending a lot more time on demonland since the flag. It is definitely in part due to just wanting to share the joy with other supporters, but it is also just much nicer to be here without all the fierce negativity and criticism.

If they were just trolls…good riddance, if they were genuine supporters, I hope they can reinvent themselves with a more positive outlook and enjoy this fantastic time. I’m hoping for a dynasty but you can’t take anything for granted so we need to revel in what we have right  now.

I have to agree with Dante. I don’t want to go to anymore games at the G where they barely bother to open the food stalls inside because there won’t be enough fans to make it economical.

 I’d  love for our fans to have a deep connection to the club and be proud to be a member. In the last month I’ve lost track of the number of times someone has come up to me at the shopping centre or cafe while I’m wearing my demons cap and given me a quiet  but intense ‘Go Dees’. I’d like more of that.

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I think North have found a couple of nice options in Curtis Taylor and Eddie Ford drafting the mid sized half forwards who often fall because teams doubt their usage at AFL level, where half forwards must be defensive workers more than flashy. Then again, North haven’t won many games with those 2 yet! 

Fritsch goes alright too 

Next year will be interesting for many of our players. Fritsch will certainly have a target on his back, when a player kicks 6 in a granny the opposition needs a plan for how to manage him. The upside for us should be the ability for other forwards to exploit the attention he gets. We've seen the bulldogs strategy for negating Lever, trying to force a match up with another tall like Shache or English so that he can't get any easy intercepts. I expect other teams to try to implement that strategy.

I'll be interested to see whether teams try to put a hard tag on Oliver or Trac. Tagging Clarrie rarely seems to have a big impact since he is an inside, contested beast and extracting under pressure is his bread and butter. I haven't yet noticed any team put a hard tag on Trac, I'll be interested to see if anyone tries it next year and what sort of effect it has on his (and our) game.

Maxy gets attention week in, week out. Frankly I'd like to see the umpires get a lot more involved with physical stuff and impeding movement well off the ball.

It is going to be really interesting being the hunted. Can't wait for next season to start.

Interesting to watch the media pundits stick to what they know. Dermott clearly can’t let go of the Tigers, basing his certainty on effectively nothing. 
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/11/17/dermott-breretons-early-2022-flag-prediction/

So, Asturbury retires, Robbie Tarrant comes in. They lose Coleman-jones and Marbiol Chol and he is tipping them to find their best form next year and win the flag.

Besides Martin coming back from injury, I can’t see where the big improvement is going to come from. Certainly not from what they pick up in the draft. They may uncover some gems but they will still need a couple of preseasons to make an impact.

 I’ve been wrong before but I really can’t see them being at the pointy end come finals 2022.

 On a separate note, it will be interesting to see whether we have earned some respect from the media yet. Clearly not from Dermie but I’ll be interested in where the flag predictions will go.

5 minutes ago, Jontee said:

And most of the football world agree with you.  Many commentators were left speechless and stunned.   They could not comprehend what they had witnessed.  The AGE described it as the best GF 3rd quarter ever.

I may be a little biased, but I’m comfortable with calling it the best quarter of GF football ever. It is certainly a quarter that I will never forget.

47 minutes ago, In Harmes Way said:

Hugh's gone first?

No, Watt’s gone first. Hugh’s gone second

There are so many parts of this I don't understand.

How can a club delist a player that still has 2 years to run on their contract without paying it out?

Why would they play silly buggers with one of their best midfielders?

If you can do something as blatent as this, why not just do this with a player who is not getting games and represents zero risk?

The article reeks of spin - everyone is happy, Hugh is awesome we wish him all the best, GC is an awesome place, so much better than when I arrived, really set up for success.

The duration of the contract is exactly what he had (and they broke) at GC so either the dollars must be substantially better or he had no faith he would be redrafted. What a strange turn of events.

37 minutes ago, durango said:

Selection of Ruckmen in the Rookie list is always going to be very speculative although Cox Jamar Jolly and Sandilands were ok.

I think this is an area were the players when selected must have a desire to become the best because they were overlook in the normal draft.

Tall players now have to become multi dimensional due to the modern ruckmen have now become the 4th midfielder not just tap ruckmen.

Good point, I would go so far as to say selection of ANYONE in the rookie list is speculative. Selection of rucks even in the main draft are often speculative. 

They have proven that it is possible, but only because of the introduction of free agency. Unfortunately it is like walking a tightrope. You need to get the right free agents at the right time or you are coming down.

 You need a really strong development program because all those older free agents are keeping your kids out of the team. I prefer the spread of ages we have right now, if we can continue to recruit an A grader every 2nd year (a big ask if your picks are around 18-20 I know) we could keep the list going a long time with only the occasional free agent to fill a need.

 Going too hard to the free agency well means that eventually your age spread starts to look like the cats. Personally I think they should have developed Clark and Narkle over bringing in Higgins. Also trading 2 first rounders for Cameron doesn’t look like a good deal right now.

 Obviously if all teams could recruit using hindsight they would be amazing, but my point is that it is walking a tightrope. It doesn’t take much lose your balance and fall.

33 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Not saying theres no room for improvement but I think its worth considering our style of play.

As a team that seems to have an ethos of moving the ball forward quickly and consistantly ie more attacking than most I think a natural side effect is to have a higher point tally than others.

I was hesitant about putting up this topic. I’m not a glass half empty person, I think this team is the bomb. By a mile the best demons team in my many years of supporting, and right now, the undeniably best team in the league.

 Every year you need to find things to improve though or other teams will overtake you. The last two finals games don’t show it as much as we were just so dominant but the QF against the lions and some of the games throughout the year you can see we often dominate early in the game, most often in the 2nd quarter, but we kick points rather than goals. This seems like an area we could focus on for improvement.

4 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

It can improve. The sports scientists killed it based on the myth that if you kicked too much you would pull a hamstring.  If anything, Burgo now thinks the opposite so hopefully that’s left a mark.

It’s also interesting that Simpson did not believe that and allows his players at West Coast to practice as much as they want and their accuracy average has led the league for a number of years. 

I agree, I completely accept that there is a strong psychological component but equally there must be a physical skill component. 

Going back and watching the finals series (a few times) I saw again something that happened often throughout the year. We rarely looked like losing but often in the second quarter we had the opportunity to put the game completely away but kicked points instead of goals.

 Obviously we took home the silverware so it is hard to be too critical, but the one place I think we could improve to make this team unbeatable is in our goal kicking. Goal kicking must have a huge mental component. Over the years, despite players becoming full time  athletes and having access to facilities and resources undreamed of back in the 70s and 80s, goal kicking has not improved at all.

 The above being true we may see some improvement off the back of the swagger and added confidence that comes from being the reigning champs, but if there was one thing to really put some time into over the off season, for me, this would be it.

On 10/29/2021 at 5:54 PM, Docs Demons said:

We can improve which is scary HOWEVER it is above the shoulders that count. Keep our feet firmly on the ground and have the desire again then I think we can do it again. 

Whoops, I think we were ‘freed from desire’ not long after the granny. 

It’s really hard to tell what the Joel Smith finished product might be. He has the attributes; massive closing speed, can jump, fierce competitor. I noticed his skills have also improved in the few games he played this year.

 I’m keen to see what he can produce with a proper preseason and some continuity. The hard question is who he could push out. Feels like he will be competing with hibbo and hunt for the one spot. Good luck to him, if he can hold those 2 out of the team he’ll be doing well.

15 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

This is a big call, so I don't need a great deal of advice on the comment. That aside, if I was asked to describe a clone of a mid-career Hassa Mann, I would start with a summary of what Bowey has displayed, so far - and probably finish with where he could be in games to come.

 

I wasn’t around to see Hassa Mann play but I understand what a legend of the game he was. It is pretty exciting to think we could have another player coming through of that calibre to join a team already brimming with talent. I can’t wait to see what this team could achieve over the next 5-10 years.

TBH I can’t wait for next season to start and hopefully a full season where we can be at games.

I really rate this kid. 7 games and already he is a quick, smart decision maker and rarely turns over the ball. He is just so clean as well, I am dying to see what he looks like after 50 - 100 games. 

Melbourne CEO shoots down 'beat up' reports around nightclub stoush with western bulldogs

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/10/27/melbourne-ceo-shoots-down-beat-up-reports-around-nightclub-stoush-with/

A beat up? By a would be footy journo?  Who'da thunk it?!