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[Goodvibes 3,596]

I can't remember the last time I saw a player dominate in the true CHF position. Brown, Hall and Pavlich are all playing in that in-between distance about 30 - 50 out from goal. Fevola, Lynch, Neitz and Lloyd are leading full forwards, Lucas goes close, Mooney and Franklin in patches but the reality is that the current style of footy tends to encourage one of two broad approaches:

1. run and carry, own the corridor and bomb beyond true CHF and into the 50 metre zone OR

2. allow the opposition to chip it around, maintain possession and then flood the defensive 50 and give up cheap kicks all the way to the 60 - 70 metre region from goal and then see if the opposition can construct a goal with a kick into the forward 50.

When was the last time you saw one big lug lead out to 50 - 60 metres, take a mark, swing around and bomb to the Full forward sitting in the goal square? It's now an era of lead up forwards (2 or 3) who often mark up towards the wing and then pause and wait for the cavalry (team mates returning from a flood) to assist in the next forward thrust.

What comes first the tactic or the player? If Brereton or Carey or even a Tredrea were in the prime of their career or Jonathan Brown hadn't suffered collision injury after collision injury, would we still see coaches constructing gameplans based around the use of a traditional CHF? Or was the game always destined to progress in the manner that it has given the possession first mantra of most modern day coaches. Bate, with a little help from Sylvia and Dunn and maybe Garland in the future give us some good options for the modern approach to using CHF's. I haven't seen one person here advocate Miller as a possibility - again what comes first, tactic or player? Miller when enjoying his best football played true CHF but the majority (including me) around here don't think he's up for it and that's why Bate may well be our best bet. From the little our new coach has said about Bate, I get the feeling he pefers him in the middle. Another reason to look forward to round 1.

[Toad33 57]

I haven't seen one person here advocate Miller as a possibility - again what comes first, tactic or player? Miller when enjoying his best football played true CHF but the majority (including me) around here don't think he's up for it and that's why Bate may well be our best bet. From the little our new coach has said about Bate, I get the feeling he pefers him in the middle. Another reason to look forward to round 1.

I liked Miller at CHF, but unfortunately for him he is a one dimensional player in an era where teams play multiple styles throughout a game and players, especially in key play making positions need to be versitile.

FWIW

Last season I don't actually think we played a CHF, we played two Centre Half Flankers.

As I saw it on most occasions we took the ball up the flanks and relied on Bate or Robbo but sometimes Dunn, and whomever was left standing, to be the leading target further up the flank.

I think a five man forwardline with a 'floating' forward/midfielder is more suitable to our current playing list. It would be best made up of 2 'lead-up' forwards, one 'wrestler/powerforward', one pack marker and one crumber.

We have a wide range of players who can fit most of those positions.

Lead up forwards - Miller, Bate, Newton, Sylvia, Robbo, Garland, Dunn

Wrestler - Neitz, Holland?, PJ?, Miller?

Pack Marker - Newton, Robbo, Jamar, White

Crumber - Davey, Yze, Sylvia, Maric, Weetra

Floating forward/midfielder - Sylvia, Bate, Newton, Yze, Bruce, Green, Davey.

Something like this if far more versatile than relying on one player to dominate one position. It allows for injuries and makes it possible to create mismatches with either height or mobility.

The truth is DO WE REALLY WANT A TRUE CHF?

Personally I don't want to see a forwardline built around a player (Lloyd, Tredrea, Barry Hall,Gehrig) only to see that player go down with an injury and the club fortunes go down with him. I've seen it before :angry:

Go Dees

[Yencks 8]

now i hate to be negative because marric was the player i was most excited about seeing this year, but he is doing year 12 and i really cant see him making the team a lot this season because he has a lot on his table...i know footy will take priority but it is essendon grammar and they will want him playing school footy....just look at xavier ellis

[Guest Schtacker]

CHF has been an issue for us for years and I can't see the problem improving in the short term unless we draft a gun kid next year.

you mean like Cale Morton?

[Guest Schtacker]

Conclusion= its a centremeter here n there...if he doesn't make it as a CHF it has nothing to do with height, it has all to do with talent.

Or brains, guts and heart

[Guest Schtacker]

I can't remember the last time I saw a player dominate in the true CHF position. Brown, Hall and Pavlich are all playing in that in-between distance about 30 - 50 out from goal. Fevola, Lynch, Neitz and Lloyd are leading full forwards, Lucas goes close, Mooney and Franklin in patches but the reality is that the current style of footy tends to encourage one of two broad approaches:

1. run and carry, own the corridor and bomb beyond true CHF and into the 50 metre zone OR

2. allow the opposition to chip it around, maintain possession and then flood the defensive 50 and give up cheap kicks all the way to the 60 - 70 metre region from goal and then see if the opposition can construct a goal with a kick into the forward 50.

When was the last time you saw one big lug lead out to 50 - 60 metres, take a mark, swing around and bomb to the Full forward sitting in the goal square? It's now an era of lead up forwards (2 or 3) who often mark up towards the wing and then pause and wait for the cavalry (team mates returning from a flood) to assist in the next forward thrust.

What comes first the tactic or the player? If Brereton or Carey or even a Tredrea were in the prime of their career or Jonathan Brown hadn't suffered collision injury after collision injury, would we still see coaches constructing gameplans based around the use of a traditional CHF? Or was the game always destined to progress in the manner that it has given the possession first mantra of most modern day coaches. Bate, with a little help from Sylvia and Dunn and maybe Garland in the future give us some good options for the modern approach to using CHF's. I haven't seen one person here advocate Miller as a possibility - again what comes first, tactic or player? Miller when enjoying his best football played true CHF but the majority (including me) around here don't think he's up for it and that's why Bate may well be our best bet. From the little our new coach has said about Bate, I get the feeling he pefers him in the middle. Another reason to look forward to round 1.

great post

[Guest Schtacker]

I liked Miller at CHF, but unfortunately for him he is a one dimensional player in an era where teams play multiple styles throughout a game and players, especially in key play making positions need to be versitile.

FWIW

Last season I don't actually think we played a CHF, we played two Centre Half Flankers.

As I saw it on most occasions we took the ball up the flanks and relied on Bate or Robbo but sometimes Dunn, and whomever was left standing, to be the leading target further up the flank.

I think a five man forwardline with a 'floating' forward/midfielder is more suitable to our current playing list. It would be best made up of 2 'lead-up' forwards, one 'wrestler/powerforward', one pack marker and one crumber.

We have a wide range of players who can fit most of those positions.

Lead up forwards - Miller, Bate, Newton, Sylvia, Robbo, Garland, Dunn

Wrestler - Neitz, Holland?, PJ?, Miller?

Pack Marker - Newton, Robbo, Jamar, White

Crumber - Davey, Yze, Sylvia, Maric, Weetra

Floating forward/midfielder - Sylvia, Bate, Newton, Yze, Bruce, Green, Davey.

Something like this if far more versatile than relying on one player to dominate one position. It allows for injuries and makes it possible to create mismatches with either height or mobility.

The truth is DO WE REALLY WANT A TRUE CHF?

Personally I don't want to see a forwardline built around a player (Lloyd, Tredrea, Barry Hall,Gehrig) only to see that player go down with an injury and the club fortunes go down with him. I've seen it before :angry:

Go Dees

and another good one... you blokes are right we shouldn't be searching the list in the hope that we somehow missed the name J.Brown in there - we should be assessing our own list, the hand of cards we're holding, and figuring out what strategy gets us the greatest value for that list... P.S. I remember reading something from Bailey that hinted his view is that a non-traditional, multi-dimensional forward line is our strength and so we have to go for a tactic that best serves it

[Goodvibes 3,596]

P.S. I remember reading something from Bailey that hinted his view is that a non-traditional, multi-dimensional forward line is our strength and so we have to go for a tactic that best serves it

Tredrea post-knee injury meant Port had to restructure and Bailey has certainly seen first hand how a collection of skillful, small-medium forwards can work. I still like the look of a forward line with two big bodies in it - particularly in September.

[Guest Schtacker]

Just wanted to say that I have really high hopes for Newton as a true Full-Forward eventually, but for this year an excellent decoy/secondary operating deep forward alongside Neitz - he will be quite hard for a lot of sides to matchup on particularly with his extremely good overhead marking capabilities ala Robbo (at the very least he will take heat off the old skipper).

Now, he has played 10 games for 14 goals - and this is in a side that struggled to get it to him regularly and with quality, a side that was often missing Neitz and/or Robbo (therefore leaving better backmen to contain him) and also he missed quite a few 'easy' shots at times.

It is quite reasonable to suggest our forwards will be receiving a lot more quality ball considering the rise of Jones and Sylvia; McLean, Davey and Bruce hopefully being fitter; and the return of Moloney and Bartram.

If Newton can naturally improve with age and experience, learn to kick a bit straighter and get the pill kicked to him better and more often I reckon we can expect him to easily up his output by 50%, and if he plays a full year that will be 40 goals... very handy indeed. If Neitz and Robbo can bag 100-120 between them we are cooking with gas. Cannot fathom people leaving Juice out of their best 22s at this stage.

[Guest Schtacker]

Tredrea post-knee injury meant Port had to restructure and Bailey has certainly seen first hand how a collection of skillful, small-medium forwards can work. I still like the look of a forward line with two big bodies in it - particularly in September.

Yes true, but it is a method that involves putting all your eggs in one basket - it is not just injury that can bring this unstuck.. sometimes your 'main man' can just be having a dirty day or his opponent just straight out has the wood on him. A 'collection' of forwards, as you put it, just increases the chances that several of them will contribute meaningfully to the outcome of the match... it's a bit like a cricket team eg Australia that has a really deep batting line-up... the chances of everyone of them failing in the one innings is very low, at least one of them always stands up and that is why they nearly always post a decent target and usually win! The same theory applies to having a deep, well-rounded and balanced 'collection' of midfielders as opposed to a couple of guns and not much else.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,762]

the question is Bate too small for CHF...

Matthew Bate= 192cm

Matthew Pavlich=191cm

Matthew Lloyd=191cm

Saun Rusling=190cm

David Neitz=193cm

Conclusion= its a centremeter here n there...if he doesn't make it as a CHF it has nothing to do with height, it has all to do with talent.

BATE FOR CHF

Wow, I can't believe that. Taller than Pavlich

I guess Bate's one of those blokes the appears smaller than he is.

My concern about Bate is his speed. He looked in slow motion against Geelong (NAB Cup)

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,762]

Just wanted to say that I have really high hopes for Newton as a true Full-Forward eventually, but for this year an excellent decoy/secondary operating deep forward alongside Neitz - he will be quite hard for a lot of sides to matchup on particularly with his extremely good overhead marking capabilities ala Robbo (at the very least he will take heat off the old skipper).

I like that idea!

Newton playing in the pocket beside Neitz. Kind of like the dangerous Llyod/Lucas combo at Essendon. You're right in that Newton could provide a serious mis-match for the opposition as they certainly won't put their best defender on him.

We could have a massive advantage in our fwd line for round 1 if Campbell Brown's suspension carries over for round 1. Go Crows this weekend!

[_becks_ 35]

I think newton needs to start games on the ground. I believe he is worth a go at CHF. Miller has been tested and does not do enough, He wasn't too bad at the start of last year when he was given a chance, but then his form dropped dramatically. Bate and Dunn haven't convinced me yet. They don't have the CHF bodies, thats what worries me about playing them at CHF. However, like someone said before, it depends on our strategy going forward.

[Yencks 8]

exactly...go adelaide

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

Just wanted to say that I have really high hopes for Newton as a true Full-Forward eventually, but for this year an excellent decoy/secondary operating deep forward alongside Neitz - he will be quite hard for a lot of sides to matchup on particularly with his extremely good overhead marking capabilities ala Robbo (at the very least he will take heat off the old skipper).

............................

Cannot fathom people leaving Juice out of their best 22s at this stage.

Agree. I like him a lot. I can see him playing a similar role to Burton (Adelaide), and if he can be as productive for us, we are on a winner.

[Jarka 767]

you mean like Cale Morton?

Do you honestly think that Morton is a CHF?

[Guest Schtacker]

Do you honestly think that Morton is a CHF?

Matthew Bate= 192cm

Matthew Pavlich=191cm

Matthew Lloyd=191cm

Saun Rusling=190cm

David Neitz=193cm

Cale Morton=192cm

Matthew Scarlett=192cm

Michael Newton=193cm

Jared Rivers=192cm

I have never seen him play but I believe he was recruited on the notion he may become anything

we obviously lack a CHF and CHB so I think he may be earmarked for one of the jobs in future

[Jarka 767]

Matthew Bate= 192cm

Matthew Pavlich=191cm

Matthew Lloyd=191cm

Saun Rusling=190cm

David Neitz=193cm

Cale Morton=192cm

Matthew Scarlett=192cm

Michael Newton=193cm

Jared Rivers=192cm

I have never seen him play but I believe he was recruited on the notion he may become anything

we obviously lack a CHF and CHB so I think he may be earmarked for one of the jobs in future

I guess that comment sums up my frustration with trying to debate this issue...

Height has nothing to do with being able to play as a successfull key forward. If it did then Brereton and Luke Molan's respective careers should have been reversed, hell, why not redraft Brent Grgic, he's over 190cm tall

[jacey 333]

I guess that comment sums up my frustration with trying to debate this issue...

Height has nothing to do with being able to play as a successfull key forward. If it did then Brereton and Luke Molan's respective careers should have been reversed, hell, why not redraft Brent Grgic, he's over 190cm tall

To be fair CAC did say Morton was drafted with an eye to maybe becoming a KPP.

However it'll a great effort to turn someone who's chased the football all his life to someone who presents.

He's still growing and will fill out so who knows.

Dunn's also got a frame to fill out so i still have high hopes for him.

Remember Bate, Dunn and Newton are still 20. They're making good strides if you ask me.

[Guest Schtacker]

I guess that comment sums up my frustration with trying to debate this issue...

Height has nothing to do with being able to play as a successfull key forward. If it did then Brereton and Luke Molan's respective careers should have been reversed, hell, why not redraft Brent Grgic, he's over 190cm tall

Gee try not to be too condescending, especially without any reason.. apologies for not hanging around junior football games watching players to assess their likelihood of becoming CHFs in 3 or 4 years time ... I'm reporting what has been said in the media as the poster above has pointed out. I assumed your basis for 'ruling him out' as a CHF would be his height, so I posted that to prove there is no reason he cannot be one.

You have pretty much claimed the club has not bothered to address our future concerns for a lack of CHF and I'm suggesting they have, by drafting Morton.

PS Brereton was a champ, Molan and Grgic were turds, and that's all there is too that. Nice point though.... <_<

[Jarka 767]

Gee try not to be too condescending, especially without any reason.. apologies for not hanging around junior football games watching players to assess their likelihood of becoming CHFs in 3 or 4 years time ... I'm reporting what has been said in the media as the poster above has pointed out. I assumed your basis for 'ruling him out' as a CHF would be his height, so I posted that to prove there is no reason he cannot be one.

You have pretty much claimed the club has not bothered to address our future concerns for a lack of CHF and I'm suggesting they have, by drafting Morton.

PS Brereton was a champ, Molan and Grgic were turds, and that's all there is too that. Nice point though.... <_<

I did come across as a bit of a [censored] so I apologise Schtacker, it was uncalled for an did nothing to contribute to the debate.

Morton has been a very classy outside midfielder with pace and great disposal. I think he'd be wasted in the forward line, leave him in the middle of the ground where he can use his speed, height and skill to cut the opposition up and deliver it to the forwards. Same goes for Bate, can you imagine a future with McLean, Jones and Sylvia playing out of the square and Morton and Bate on each wing? Puts a smile on my face! But I honestly think that a genuine marking CHF would compliment the team perfectly and it would allow us to play our best players to their strengths, not sacrificing them because we have no key forwards.

I have no problems with the club drafting Morton as at the time he appeared to be the best available talent (and will be a great player), but if the club wanted to address the issue then they would have taken Henderson (who I was hoping for, if only we could have gotten the Lion's pick 8 instead for TJ...). Our problems with KPP's have gone back for many years and I've argued long and hard that our attempts to solve them have been unfruitful.

[Jarka 767]

To be fair CAC did say Morton was drafted with an eye to maybe becoming a KPP.

However it'll a great effort to turn someone who's chased the football all his life to someone who presents.

He's still growing and will fill out so who knows.

Dunn's also got a frame to fill out so i still have high hopes for him.

Remember Bate, Dunn and Newton are still 20. They're making good strides if you ask me.

CAC does not have a great record with predicting KPP's

[Paul Gardner 6]

I did come across as a bit of a [censored] so I apologise Schtacker, it was uncalled for an did nothing to contribute to the debate.

Morton has been a very classy outside midfielder with pace and great disposal. I think he'd be wasted in the forward line, leave him in the middle of the ground where he can use his speed, height and skill to cut the opposition up and deliver it to the forwards. Same goes for Bate, can you imagine a future with McLean, Jones and Sylvia playing out of the square and Morton and Bate on each wing? Puts a smile on my face! But I honestly think that a genuine marking CHF would compliment the team perfectly and it would allow us to play our best players to their strengths, not sacrificing them because we have no key forwards.

I have no problems with the club drafting Morton as at the time he appeared to be the best available talent (and will be a great player), but if the club wanted to address the issue then they would have taken Henderson (who I was hoping for, if only we could have gotten the Lion's pick 8 instead for TJ...). Our problems with KPP's have gone back for many years and I've argued long and hard that our attempts to solve them have been unfruitful.

Agreed!

[Guest Schtacker]

I did come across as a bit of a [censored] so I apologise Schtacker, it was uncalled for an did nothing to contribute to the debate.

Morton has been a very classy outside midfielder with pace and great disposal. I think he'd be wasted in the forward line, leave him in the middle of the ground where he can use his speed, height and skill to cut the opposition up and deliver it to the forwards. Same goes for Bate, can you imagine a future with McLean, Jones and Sylvia playing out of the square and Morton and Bate on each wing? Puts a smile on my face! But I honestly think that a genuine marking CHF would compliment the team perfectly and it would allow us to play our best players to their strengths, not sacrificing them because we have no key forwards.

I have no problems with the club drafting Morton as at the time he appeared to be the best available talent (and will be a great player), but if the club wanted to address the issue then they would have taken Henderson (who I was hoping for, if only we could have gotten the Lion's pick 8 instead for TJ...). Our problems with KPP's have gone back for many years and I've argued long and hard that our attempts to solve them have been unfruitful.

"I think he'd be wasted in the forward line" I'm sure you're right but the fact is that somebody is going to have to do it and we are bereft of options... I agree with taking the best available talent but you're right - it should not mean ignoring important deficiencies. I think it should be noted that everyone expected Brad Miller to be our CHF but he has failed miserably, possibly the one player along with Yze and Johnstone to have completely ruined Daniher's masterplan (big call I know but these are the blokes who have most underachieved of their expectations in recent years IMO)

I think you are right though, if you look at the last few drafts you can't say there are many CHF or CHB options that the club has sought

It just comes down to the question would you rather have Morton as an elite midfielder or a very good CHF (Henderson) in a side that desperately needs one? Very tough question especially without a crystal ball.

[Jarka 767]

It just comes down to the question would you rather have Morton as an elite midfielder or a very good CHF (Henderson) in a side that desperately needs one? Very tough question especially without a crystal ball.

I agree, and as I've already stated even though I was hoping for Henderson I have no problems with Morton because at the time he was considered the 'best available', hell, alot of people had him second only to Cotchin. With such a high pick I can understand why you wouldn't gamble and barring a serious injury Morton is going to be a quality pick. I read someone who saw the practice match on the weekend rated him as our best drafted player - would be nice.