Of course CAC isn't solely responsible for us not winning a flag, but equally ridiculous is the pedestal that many here put him on. The facts remain that after having the job for ten years our new coach believes that the squad needs to be rebuilt, now no matter how you sugar coat it that reflects poorly on the recruiting department.

You are right, Jarka! It's interesting that people rate his last 5 years as his finest - that would be this current draft where not one game has yet been played, 2006, 2005, 2004 and 2003. On page 10 of the sport liftout of "The Sunday Age" the day after the draft CAC is quoted thus" At this time we're always happy but in three years time we'll actually know how it all turns out". Some premature celebrations from those claiming his best work has been the last five drafts. By his own admission, only now can we say with any certainty how the 04 draft panned out - and how does it look?

I think CAC has escaped the same level of scrutiny as the rest of the footy department. Most supporters would agree he is now well into his second rebuilding phase (the first commenced with the 99 draft) and he has been pretty much solely responsible for all of our recruiting since 1997 - 10 years is a footy lifetime.

You are right, Jarka! It's interesting that people rate his last 5 years as his finest - that would be this current draft where not one game has yet been played, 2006, 2005, 2004 and 2003. On page 10 of the sport liftout of "The Sunday Age" the day after the draft CAC is quoted thus" At this time we're always happy but in three years time we'll actually know how it all turns out". Some premature celebrations from those claiming his best work has been the last five drafts. By his own admission, only now can we say with any certainty how the 04 draft panned out - and how does it look?

I think CAC has escaped the same level of scrutiny as the rest of the footy department. Most supporters would agree he is now well into his second rebuilding phase (the first commenced with the 99 draft) and he has been pretty much solely responsible for all of our recruiting since 1997 - 10 years is a footy lifetime.

2004 draft - Matthew Bate (13), Lynden Dunn(15),Michael Newton(43) - also John Meesen went at pick 8.

I will let you be the judge.

13. Melbourne: Matthew Bate (Eastern Ranges)

14. Essendon: Angus Monfries (Sturt)

15. Melbourne: Lynden Dunn (Calder Cannons)

16. Richmond: Adam Pattison (Northern Knights)

17. St Kilda: Andrew McQualter (Gippsland Power)

18. Brisbane Lions: Cameron Wood (West Adelaide)

19.Port Adelaide: Ryan Willits (Northern Knights)

20. Richmond: Dean Polo (Gippsland Power)

21. Hawthorn: Thomas Murphy (Sandringham Dragons)

22. Western Bulldogs: Jesse Wells (Tassie Mariners)

23. Collingwood: Sean Rusling (West Adelaide)

24. Adelaide: Nathan Van Berlo (West Perth)

25. Carlton: Adam Hartlett: (West Adelaide)

26. Hawthorn: Matthew Little (Calder Cannons)

27. Brisbane Lions: Patrick Garner (Western Magpies)

28. Adelaide: Chad Gibson (Norwood)

29. West Coast: Matthew Rosa (North Ballarat Rebels)

30. Essendon: Andrew Lee (Tassie Mariners)

31. Sydney: Jarred Moore (Dandenong Stingrays)

32. Geelong: Brent Prismall (Western Jets)

33. St Kilda: Cain Ackland (Port Adelaide)

34. Port Adelaide: James Ezard (Calder Cannons)

35. Port Adelaide: Fabian Deluca (Eastern Ranges)

36. Richmond: Luke McGuane (Broadbeach)

37. West Coast: Mark LeCras (West Perth)

38. Western Bulldogs: Damian McCormack (Dandenong Stingrays)

39. Collingwood: Travis Cloke (Eastern Ranges)

40. Adelaide: Ivan Maric (Calder Cannons)

41. Carlton: Luke Blackwell (Swan Districts)

42. Kangaroos: Jesse W Smith (Calder Cannons)

43. Melbourne: Michael Newton (Murray Bushrangers)

I'm unconvinced by this, in reality he's had the job for ten years. He's drafted a whole generation of players and the result is that our new coach reckons we need to rebuild the list around the u23's. Currently we're as far from ultimate success as any other team in the comp.

jarka, you must consider what the aim of the recruiting was. after reaching the grand final in 2000 our aims were to get the extra edge to take us all the way - thus a number of mature recruits, that are now ocnsidered wasted picks by many. when we bottomed out in 2001 the club tried to asses what it percieved as weaknesses in the list. we know that failed.

but since that time we have begun to rebuild a list from youth, and DB has ensured that perpetuates with his cleaning out of older players. DB doesnt plan on winning the flag next year, or the year after. but if we continue to recruit and develop well, in 4-5 years brock and col will be 25-26, most of the players on the list will be younger, and we will have a core group of leaders in the prime of their careers and a team of 23 year olds. we are half way through the development cycle now.

consider CAC's reign thus far as the second half of one cycle and the first half of the next.

Yes and no. Personally I am of the belief that CAC's last 5 years have been his finest, and that his (in my eyes) success over that period is born directly from experience in the role. Experience that will be lost if CAC goes, and we risk having to endure 5 or so years of mediocre recruiting while the new guy finds his feet. Everyone recruited within CAC's 5 "experience" years still fits the "23 and under" criteria. It's all well and good to argue that all of CAC's early recruits are being tossed out, but if you're going to do that you have to acknowledge that every single one of the players Bailey wants to base his team around was also recruited by CAC.

You also can't forget that while Bailey is a fan of our 23 and unders, there's also a gaping hole in our list that no other clubs really suffer from around the 25 year old mark because of draft penalties. That could be just as responsible for our "list deficiencies" as poor recruiting.

Anyway, I'm sure you'd agree Jarka that the real level of accountability CAC should be held for lies somewhere in between the two extremes we've seen in this thread. My above post was in response to the two directly above me (from demonsflag555657 and occo) more than anything.

I understand what you're saying Nash, I just feel that although CAC is a fine recruiter he's overrated by alot of Melbourne players. I agree (and have previously stated in other threads) that his last 5 years is miles better than the first 5. But gee, those first 5 years hurt. As you know my two issues with him are KPP's and leadership qualities, and yes both seem to be fixed (especially the latter).

With regards to the draft penalties, I'm not sure it had a major affect on us. It wasn't like we missed a whole draft (or in the case of the blues a whole two drafts), we missed a first round one year then the next we lost our 2nd and 3rd round picks. What's made it worse is that we've blown similiar picks away with poor trades which gradually builds up.

It's not the 1st round picks that win premierships, it's the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds that do.

But there's nothing like time to prove me, you and CAC right or wrong.

Amen to that, I'll happily post a 'I was wrong' thread at the end of next season if we make the semi's.

2004 draft - Matthew Bate (13), Lynden Dunn(15),Michael Newton(43) - also John Meesen went at pick 8.

I will let you be the judge.

13. Melbourne: Matthew Bate (Eastern Ranges)

14. Essendon: Angus Monfries (Sturt)

15. Melbourne: Lynden Dunn (Calder Cannons)

16. Richmond: Adam Pattison (Northern Knights)

17. St Kilda: Andrew McQualter (Gippsland Power)

18. Brisbane Lions: Cameron Wood (West Adelaide)

19.Port Adelaide: Ryan Willits (Northern Knights)

20. Richmond: Dean Polo (Gippsland Power)

21. Hawthorn: Thomas Murphy (Sandringham Dragons)

22. Western Bulldogs: Jesse Wells (Tassie Mariners)

23. Collingwood: Sean Rusling (West Adelaide)

24. Adelaide: Nathan Van Berlo (West Perth)

25. Carlton: Adam Hartlett: (West Adelaide)

26. Hawthorn: Matthew Little (Calder Cannons)

27. Brisbane Lions: Patrick Garner (Western Magpies)

28. Adelaide: Chad Gibson (Norwood)

29. West Coast: Matthew Rosa (North Ballarat Rebels)

30. Essendon: Andrew Lee (Tassie Mariners)

31. Sydney: Jarred Moore (Dandenong Stingrays)

32. Geelong: Brent Prismall (Western Jets)

33. St Kilda: Cain Ackland (Port Adelaide)

34. Port Adelaide: James Ezard (Calder Cannons)

35. Port Adelaide: Fabian Deluca (Eastern Ranges)

36. Richmond: Luke McGuane (Broadbeach)

37. West Coast: Mark LeCras (West Perth)

38. Western Bulldogs: Damian McCormack (Dandenong Stingrays)

39. Collingwood: Travis Cloke (Eastern Ranges)

40. Adelaide: Ivan Maric (Calder Cannons)

41. Carlton: Luke Blackwell (Swan Districts)

42. Kangaroos: Jesse W Smith (Calder Cannons)

43. Melbourne: Michael Newton (Murray Bushrangers)

Bate is an established player; Dunn flits between MFC and Sandringham, Newton has played a hand full of games. The jury would have to still be out on Dunn and Newton; Meesen doesn't even come into the equation yet. Players who have achieved more than Dunn who was taken at pick 15 (a trade for Darren Jolly) imo- Rusling(injury aside), Van Berlo (7th in Crows B&F this year), Rosa(22 games this season) and perhaps Le Cras(19 games this season). Can't count Cloke, Blackwell and Jesse Smith (all F/S). I agree that Dunn has significant scope for improvement and could turn into a good utility player, and may well turn out to be a better player than some of the aforementioned, but he's not there yet. He managed 12 games in a shocking year for the club when there were opportunities aplenty. I'm not convinced that Newton is much more than a one trick pony - time will tell.

jarka, you must consider what the aim of the recruiting was. after reaching the grand final in 2000 our aims were to get the extra edge to take us all the way - thus a number of mature recruits, that are now ocnsidered wasted picks by many. when we bottomed out in 2001 the club tried to asses what it percieved as weaknesses in the list. we know that failed.

but since that time we have begun to rebuild a list from youth, and DB has ensured that perpetuates with his cleaning out of older players. DB doesnt plan on winning the flag next year, or the year after. but if we continue to recruit and develop well, in 4-5 years brock and col will be 25-26, most of the players on the list will be younger, and we will have a core group of leaders in the prime of their careers and a team of 23 year olds. we are half way through the development cycle now.

consider CAC's reign thus far as the second half of one cycle and the first half of the next.

deanox, what you say is true but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow. We at Melbourne have a habit of overrating our list and this attitude of giving away valuable picks for the icing on the cake is always fraught with danger.

deanox, what you say is true but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow. We at Melbourne have a habit of overrating our list and this attitude of giving away valuable picks for the icing on the cake is always fraught with danger.

i'll give you credit for that...we do over rate our list at melbourne a little bit

Nugget, only one of your arguments makes any sense, he will undoubtedly get paid more at richmond, but I think it is far more likely that his decision will be swayed by tuhe fact Richmond's recruiting department will have a lot more resources available to them. I also think that CAC's role in Melbourne is being slightly diminished with new names coming on board. Not that I disagree with the new names.

what i was saying in a couple of my points is that with many proffesions for example teaching, it is sometimes good for teachers to go to a new school if they become very comfortable to challenge themselves professionally, hence developing their teaching skills and making them better teachers with new and old experiances...with CAC, this could be similar at a new club

also, one of my other points was that he was a richmond fan when he was younger...i know this didnt mean anything with Chri$$ Judd, but his heart may be at richmond, hence he may want to move their for reasons other than $$$$.

Seems like he's gone.

Craig Cameron moves on after 10 years of service